38's in a .357 magnum rifle and the POI paradox

have you experimented with different bullet weights?

It can easily be solved by shooting .357s in .357 carbines.
Otherwise, of course you'll have diverging POIs.
Denis

I have two williams peep sights for mine. Changing them depending upon load is pretty easy.

I don't shoot .38s out of it much anymore though. I have enough .357 mag brass so that I may as well just load .357 mag rounds down to the .38 spl level. I'm not sure, but I think doing this avoids some fowling problems that can occur when shooting specials.

Krochus, in shooting my 44 mag marlin I have found that for practice and short range shooting, a light load of 7 gr tight group under a MB 240gr smasher shoots to poa @ 25yrds while 23 gr of H110 under 240gr XTP shoots poa @ 100yrds. Its just trial and error. I. Don't know of any short cuts. Oh, and by the way, the light loads hit about 3ft low at 100yrds.

I use two different sights in my Marlin 1894 to accomplish this. The factory "semi-buckhorn" sight is used for .38 Special loads, and the Marble peep sight is used for the .357 Magnum loads. To use the .38 Special, fold down the peep sight and flip up the factory rear blade. To shoot .357 Magnums, fold down the factory rear blade and flip up the Marble peep.

It works pretty well for me. I got the idea from switching between .22 LR and .22 CB loads in my Marlin 39AS and the resulting problems and from an article Francis Sell wrote about hunting with lever actions.

I really like the three-leaf "safari" style sight systems. You can find them on gunbroker sometimes for standard dovetails.

My understanding is that if you shoot .38s with a 180 grain bullet and about 4.4 grains of 231 you don't have to worry about where the bullet hits...

In the 1894 Marlin I used to own it actually shot full power magnums and .38 Special handloads of reasonable power close enough at 50 yards that I could mostly hold dead on.

depends on what your ambitions and expectations are, I guess

never yet saw a 38sp out of a 357 6" revolver that would hit same POI for same POA as a 357 out of a six inch revolver at 100 yards... nor a 22 rimfire either @50 vs 100, not out of any gun, short or long
(but mebbe I just haven't yet found the right gun yet, could be)

"windage and elevation" counts for most pistol cartridges out of most any gun, long or short, at 100 yards

if limit your ambitions to ~50 yards, only about a 1" difference out of most loads w/ carbine/rifle barrels 357 vs. 38sp
357s are prone to leave the muzzle a tad quicker than 38sp
but most pointy bullets shoot a bit flatter out of rifles than most non-pointy bullets

With the 38's printing much much higher due to in bbl dwell time.

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have you experimented with different bullet weights?

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I would load a 110gr.ish fast .38spl and a 180gr for .357 mag.

In my case the only .357/.38 rifle I have is a Rossi SRC 16". The longest I have shot it is 50 yards. For me nail polish was the answer. Green for .38 (my reloads) and Red for .357 (my reloads). What I am saying is that all I have to do is adjust the rear sight to the appropriate notch on the ladder and I am good to go. POI is perfect for both. I don't think of the rifle as a target gun but with the color coding it is minute of coke can out to 50 yards no problem. Bill

krochus said:

I suppose I should add that my expectations for both firearms are pretty stringent. Which I'm pleased to say they're both exceeding. For example I was shooting the uberti rolling block at an 11" steel spinner at a range of 200m and making a fine showing might I add.

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I dunno,
I don't think your accuracy expectations are at all unrealistic
3 moa (or better) isn't the least bit unrealistic with centerfire lever actions, some do quite a bit better
I guess I just didn't get the "surprise" factor re: trajectories of handgun cartridges (no matter how long the barrel), that's all
there never was any secret about it, much less a dirty little secret

some 45-70 guys shoot 1000 yard steel, some 30-30 guys kill whitetail at 300 yards, yet neither of those shoots all that fast-n-flat... much less with loadings of such disparate muzzle velocity as 38 vs 357
(those 45-70 guys often have really tall elevators on those peepers, because they expect to use them that way)
and you can get some really tall aftermarket elevator peep sights for most any lever action
(Marble's mebbe, I haven't looked for any such in too long now)

but 38/357s never have been touted as 200 yard hunting or target rifles, leastways that I know of (45-70s they ain't)
as some of the posters indicated, most of us shoot handgun cartridges at <100 yards, and within that context, elevation for zero just isn't all that radical... at 50, not enough to even bother with sight adjustment, just use a 6 o'clock hold instead of split center hold

if looking for fast-n-flat in a nice lever action, look at Browning BLRs, they do a bunch of fast pointy cartridges, and will hold their own with traditional bolt guns (because they "are" bolt guns)

I have a Winny M 1892 that some one at some time converted to .357 Mag .

I have more .38 Special brass , than .357 brass .

I shoot a RNL ~ 150 grain bullet home cast from a Lee 6 Cavity mold . ( My pistol caliber lever guns seem to feed the RNL better than the SWC's I used to cast for wheel guns . )

I load about a 75% .357 pressure load ( either WC820 or AA # 9 ) in both kinds of brass .

The .357 brass gets the bullets seated & crimped at the last groove , closest to the nose of the bullet . The .38 brass gets the bullets seated and crimped one groove " longer " .

This makes the .38's ~ the same OAL as the .357's , with ~ the same internal case volume .

My Winny was set up to feed .357 OAL . Does not feed .38 OAL ammo very well .

So both the .357 and the .38 ammo is essentially interchangeable . And my S&W does not care either .

Just take a little additional care , when cleaning the chamber .

By the way , I do not own a .38 Special firearm . So , I am not concerned with having .38 ammo that is too hot for a .38 chambered gun .

God bless
Wyr

krochus said:

at 50yds with both my rifles fired from the bench the poi disparity is getting close to 2'

as to accuracy at 100m the rolling block is holding around 2moa with thr marlin not being tested much yet. Steel with a pistol cartridge carbine is just fun at longer ranges

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did not mean any above to be contentious, just honestly don't get it, and cannot think of any explanation for 2 feet elevation difference at 50 yards, same POA vs POI (sights untouched), 38 sp vs 357

I just shoot whatever "cheap (?)" off-shelf factory fodder I can find (don't reload), if it's "cheap", I buy it if/when lucky enough to find any, these days
ain't nothing special about mine, generic Marlin 1894 and LSI/Rossi '92, and they both shoot 38 vs 357 same difference at the ranges I am talking about, no matter whether using open sights or low power scope or red dot... ~ 1" difference at 50 yards IF/WHEN zeroed at 50 with either load, mebbe ~ 1 1/2" difference max
both will do ~3 moa with 38s, ~ 2 moa with 357s

if sighting same gun for a 200 yard zero on one cartridge, then switch cartridges, sights untouched, sure big difference expected.. but not supposing that was what you were saying

I am misinterpreting something, but somebody here ought to know what it is

"this is because the gun has had a chance to move upward under recoil before the much much slower 38's can clear the muzzle."

I dunno,
me "old shaky", I shoot for groups off a sandbag .. my barrel don't move enough to matter all that much, recoil/muzzle rise with 38sp is pert near zero, and hardly-more-than w/ 357
but it can't be your stance/hold/trigger, not doing 2 moa (with either/any load), no way, not suggesting any such

maybe it is barrel dwell time on 1750 fps vs 1000 fps, but I just ain't "been there done that", can't help