Open carrying Police Chief in Uniform Told to Leave Gun Outside Ikea

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In response to "He is on duty all the time in his jurisdiction, even after his shift ends and before it starts"-- No he is not.
"Off duty" does not necessarily mean "off duty". It often means "off the clock".

Courts have ruled in every case I can find that police officers who are not on suspension or administrative leave have the same authority whenever they are within their jurisdictions, and in some states, even outside their local jurisdictions. Their departments are liable in the same ways for their conduct, and for compensation for injury, and so on.

The extent to which a police officer who has checked out at the end of the day is required to perform those duties gets a little murkier and may be subject to the terms of collective bargaining agreements or maybe just to their job descriptions.

Where I live, officers of some departments are expected to take their patrol cars home and to use them for personal transportation. And when they do that they are expected to keep their eyes open, their radios on, and their guns in their holsters. They are not paid overtime for that.

I have known off duty officers who have heard on-air reports of crimes in progress and have gone the the scene because of proximity--and ended up shooting.

When an off duty police officer is not in uniform, he may conduct himself differently for obvious reasons (his own safety among them), but he is not expected to behave as one who is not a sworn officer.

That may also be true for the officer who is on the way home in uniform.

Where I live, authority is strictly limited according to departmental jurisdiction. That is apparently not true in Texas.

Interesting that his started out with an incident in Maryland, where for the most part only the police and the criminals are armed.
 
I think they are damaging to society.

To be specific... I am talking about carve-outs to general prohibitions here in the US granted to them while not acting in an official capacity. E.g. the fact that an army cook can buy a one-hand knife in places a McDonald's cook cannot. That carve-out is there because one-handed knives have legitimate use and an outright ban would have caused "special" users to actively oppose the law - something they should have done. They were bought off though.

I can understand some of what you're trying to bring across but then you posted the above.

I think we're off topic now but, in respect to the bold type, what the heck are you talking about? The example given doesn't even exist, thereby rendering your answer without merit. The other conclusion I've drawn based on that "example" is that you are unfamiliar as to what rules, restrictions, and laws the individual soldier abides by in official vs unofficial capacities.

If it's allowed, I'd like to see you give a better explanation, with a real example this time, of what these special rights are that soldiers receive.

I'm also trying to understand where the tie-in exists between your above post and LEOs carrying on/off duty in businesses.
 
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I can understand some of what you're trying to bring across but then you posted the above.

I think we're off topic now but, in respect to the bold type, what the heck are you talking about? The example given doesn't even exist, thereby rendering your answer without merit. The other conclusion I've drawn based on that "example" is that you are unfamiliar as to what rules, restrictions, and laws the individual soldier abides by in official vs unofficial capacities.

If it's allowed, I'd like to see you give a better explanation, with a real example this time, of what these special rights are that soldiers receive.

In the US, federal law (somewhere in 18 USC 1716) restricts the sale of many folding knives designed to be operated with one hand, commonly referred to as "automatic" knives, to a short list of people including active duty military personnel. So a navy radar tech can buy a Benchmade 5000 per federal law, a civilian doing the same job cannot. Many states mirror the federal laws, so even though the code I cited is federal, there are equivalent restrictions at the state or even local level, most of which have the same carve-outs. The result is that when I am in those states I cannot buy or carry something an active duty army cook can.

Some states allow such knives to everyone. Even then, the federal restrictions impinge. I happen to have a Benchmade auto knife, which is legal for me to carry in Texas. I do not get the Benchmade warranty, however, because I am unable to ship my knife to Oregon for service.

I'm also trying to understand where the tie-in exists between your above post and LEOs carrying on/off duty in businesses.

Consider it this way: It is possible to write the laws so that LEOs can carry on the job, and off the job, without making them a special class of people. You simply write the carry laws in such a way that they can apply to everyone. This is true for most police powers actually. It is not necessary to grant police special powers to arrest, for example. E.g. in California (and many other places) I can arrest someone just as a LEO does. Of course if I am wrong about it I am exposed to mucho liability that an officer in the course of her duties is not personally exposed to (though her department/city is), but the power is the same.

Where things get ugly, however, is when people want to impose restrictions. Carry restrictions are quite old so it is harder for most people to relate to them, but magazine capacity is a good current example. The argument is the same for both.

When a politician wants to restrict sales of magazines of over 10rd capacity, some of the first groups to state an objection for themselves are police unions. Police officers, they argue, cannot operate under that restriction. And that's fine, I don't think anyone should. The problem is that instead of accepting that the police use case invalidates the restriction, they then carve out an exemption for police.

Same with carry laws. When faced with CCW reciprocity issues, rather than saying, "this is evidence we need national Concealed Carry reciprocity," they carved out a rule for a small portion of the population. When faced with the reality that carry restrictions (open or concealed) would prevent off duty police officers from carrying, which is evidence that the carry restriction is broken, they carved out a LEO exemption rather than fixing the problem for everyone.

That isn't an accident or oversight of course. It is collusion. It is an organized effort between the politicians and the special interests (police unions in this case) to restrict most citizens from exercising the same 2A rights that LEOs are exercising when they carry (whether they think of it that way or not). It isn't unreasonable to call the restriction of rights people need in their day to day lives to be opression.

Which is where the social aspect comes in. By going along with an agreement to restrict the rights of most citizens as long as they could continue to exercise theirs, police officers got drawn into a battle and put themselves on the wrong side as far as most citizens who notice will be concerned. That isn't going to lead to positive feelings. It is downright divisive in fact. It will color perceptions and lead to unfriendly interactions, which is a vicious downward spiral cops shouldn't want to be caught up in.

An off duty cop should have the same right to carry as any other citizen. No more, no less. Anything else is harmful to everyone including the cops.
 
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Courts have ruled in every case I can find that police officers who are not on suspension or administrative leave have the same authority whenever they are within their jurisdictions, and in some states, even outside their local jurisdictions. Their departments are liable in the same ways for their conduct, and for compensation for injury, and so on.

What does that have to do with anything? Is the gun required to demonstrate said authority? If you think that, a certain California police chief agrees with you:

A gun is an offensive weapon used to intimidate and show power

Now if you believe that the gun is simply a tool required to do his job, then onto your next point:

The extent to which a police officer who has checked out at the end of the day is required to perform those duties gets a little murkier and may be subject to the terms of collective bargaining agreements or maybe just to their job descriptions.

Cops are not required by law to do anything, on or off-duty. They have zero obligation from a legal standpoint, and zero legal liability if they do nothing. Courts have ruled on this. It's a job, nothing more.

So once a cop is off-the-clock, he is not getting paid to do the job which requires a sidearm, so as far as I'm concerned, he is no different from any of us peasants and should be subject to the same laws. I can go volunteer to patrol the local IKEA for free. And they'd be fully empowered to tell me to take a hike.
 
"Off duty" does not necessarily mean "off duty". It often means "off the clock".

Courts have ruled in every case I can find that police officers who are not on suspension or administrative leave have the same authority whenever they are within their jurisdictions, and in some states, even outside their local jurisdictions. Their departments are liable in the same ways for their conduct, and for compensation for injury, and so on.

The extent to which a police officer who has checked out at the end of the day is required to perform those duties gets a little murkier and may be subject to the terms of collective bargaining agreements or maybe just to their job descriptions.

Where I live, officers of some departments are expected to take their patrol cars home and to use them for personal transportation. And when they do that they are expected to keep their eyes open, their radios on, and their guns in their holsters. They are not paid overtime for that.

I have known off duty officers who have heard on-air reports of crimes in progress and have gone the the scene because of proximity--and ended up shooting.

When an off duty police officer is not in uniform, he may conduct himself differently for obvious reasons (his own safety among them), but he is not expected to behave as one who is not a sworn officer.

That may also be true for the officer who is on the way home in uniform.

Where I live, authority is strictly limited according to departmental jurisdiction. That is apparently not true in Texas.

Interesting that his started out with an incident in Maryland, where for the most part only the police and the criminals are armed.
Does this also mean they're never allowed to imbibe, go on vacation, travel, etc...?

For now, let's just stick with the drinking one. Obviously at this point they're "off duty", or else a few of my drinking buddies are in a lot of trouble.
 
Posted by dmancornell: Cops are not required by law to do anything, on or off-duty. They have zero obligation from a legal standpoint, and zero legal liability if they do nothing. Courts have ruled on this.
True fact.

It's a job, nothing more.
Thus, the terms of employment define what they are expected to do to keep the job.

So once a cop is off-the-clock, he is not getting paid to do the job which requires a sidearm, so as far as I'm concerned, he is no different from any of us peasants and should be subject to the same laws.
What you believe doesn't matter. Court rulings have determined the authority of police officers and when and where they have it, and job-related rules and agreements determine what is expected of them.

The former vary somewhat. The latter may vary more.
 
Ed Ames said:
In the US, federal law (somewhere in 18 USC 1716) restricts the sale of many folding knives designed to be operated with one hand...

18 USC 1716 (g) limits the movement of automatic knives through the USPS. I has no limitation on the sales or ownership:

(g) All knives having a blade which opens
automatically (1) by hand pressure applied to a
button or other device in the handle of the
knife, or (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or
both, are nonmailable and shall not be deposited
in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer
or employee of the Postal Service. Such
knives may be conveyed in the mails, under
such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe—
(1) to civilian or Armed Forces supply or
procurement officers and employees of the
Federal Government ordering, procuring, or
purchasing such knives in connection with the
activities of the Federal Government;
(2) to supply or procurement officers of the
National Guard, the Air National Guard, or
militia of a State ordering, procuring, or purchasing
such knives in connection with the activities
of such organizations;
(3) to supply or procurement officers or employees
of any State, or any political subdivision
of a State or Territory, ordering, procuring,
or purchasing such knives in connection
with the activities of such government; and
(4) to manufacturers of such knives or bona
fide dealers therein in connection with any
shipment made pursuant to an order from any
person designated in paragraphs (1), (2), and
(3).
The Postal Service may require, as a condition
of conveying any such knife in the mails, that
any person proposing to mail such knife explain
in writing to the satisfaction of the Postal Service
that the mailing of such knife will not be in
violation of this section.
 
Sorry, copy/pasted the wrong cite.

15 U.S. Code § 1243

"Whoever, within any Territory or possession of the United States, within Indian country (as defined in section 1151 of title 18), or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States (as defined in section 7 of title 18), manufactures, sells, or possesses any switchblade knife, shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

15 U.S. Code § 1244

"Sections 1242 and 1243 of this title shall not apply to—
...
(2) the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution, possession, or introduction into interstate commerce, of switchblade knives pursuant to contract with the Armed Forces;
(3) the Armed Forces or any member or employee thereof acting in the performance of his duty;
.."


With the point being, many states impose similar restrictions too.
You know I am right, you are just being picky.
 
What you believe doesn't matter. Court rulings have determined the authority of police officers and when and where they have it, and job-related rules and agreements determine what is expected of them.

There is no variation in the fact that the desires of private property and business owners aren't included in any of these agreements.

It is troubling that you argue for special carry privileges from a court ruling on police authority. The gun is a tool, not a symbol of authority. This incident is a case of cops squeezing every last bit of privilege out of their employment status.
 
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This incident just shows the absurdity of "no guns allowed" rules. The security guard should be commended for applying the rule consistently; it's too bad Ikea caved.
 
Sam1911 said:
It really only seems like a conflict. The officer is still not required to enter the store, unless his official business requires that. He is absolutely free to not patronize that establishment, thus neither violating his department's policy, nor the store's rules.

Ah, when you put it that way it makes plenty of sense. Clearly I didn't think it entirely through. Although I'm not sure it matters, because if I recall correctly when the officer was told he couldn't carry his gun in the store, he left his cart and walked out, then complained to corporate, which I suspect is pretty much what the rest of us would have done, although it probably wouldn't have resolved favorably for any of us (definitely not in Maryland).

Sam1911 said:
Oh, surely not illegal. Of course, persuading cops to come and hang out at your place instead of all the other places they might frequent certainly does improve your odds of not getting robbed. I wonder, how much should the competing pizza joint offer them to come hang out in THEIR store instead? Which of you wants that protection most? C'mon, every benefit costs somebody something. You need protection! How much are you willing to bid them up? A free soda for their benevolent oversight, to go with their discount? "Officer appreciation" day?

Persuading officers to come to your store by giving them monetary benefits (e.g. a literal discount) is still corruption, if only just a "little white" corruption. And it is acceptable because it benefits you. If you got robbed while three cops sat eating free (oh, discounted) pizza in the shop across the street, well, you should have provided a bit more incentive for them to be your shield.

But you're right, as I said, that's how the world works. Give a little to get a little.

I would like to point out that the issue of 'side benefits' for officers is actually a hotly debated argument in the law enforcement community. If you were trying to imply that there is some sort of universal blue-line stonewall around a right to free coffee or something, I would respectfully say you're wrong.

Opinions differ widely in the LE community about whether discounts or perks constitute a corrupting influence, and if not, at what level it does.

Some agencies have extremely strict policies stating that officers may never accept discounts for being police officers, while others are OK with it as long as it is a discount not given as part of a quid pro quo arrangement and the discount is not for a specific person or agency. I doubt there are any even the implication of a quid pro quo arrangement is acceptable.

This is an issue outside law enforcement, too, which is why so many businesses have arcane rules regarding whether it's acceptable for an outside vendor to pay for a meal, etc.
 
Ah, when you put it that way it makes plenty of sense. Clearly I didn't think it entirely through. Although I'm not sure it matters, because if I recall correctly when the officer was told he couldn't carry his gun in the store, he left his cart and walked out, then complained to corporate, which I suspect is pretty much what the rest of us would have done, although it probably wouldn't have resolved favorably for any of us (definitely not in Maryland).
And that was exactly the right thing to do, whether you're a police officer or a licensed carrier (or even an unlicensed carrier, where legal). Kudos to the chief for not making a scene and pushing the issue there in the store. The whole thing would have been just so much more distasteful if it had escalated to the level of, "Son, do you know who I AM? You can't tell ME not to carry here! Why I'm ...!"

I would like to point out that the issue of 'side benefits' for officers is actually a hotly debated argument in the law enforcement community. If you were trying to imply that there is some sort of universal blue-line stonewall around a right to free coffee or something, I would respectfully say you're wrong.
No, certainly not universal. There are many officers who are quite scrupulous to keep away from any appearance of unfair treatment or unseemly dealings, and some agencies are rigorously strict about officers accepting favors.

This is an issue outside law enforcement, too, which is why so many businesses have arcane rules regarding whether it's acceptable for an outside vendor to pay for a meal, etc.
Absolutely! If the business folks (of all people!) can see the problems with favors and little white bribes to win an account or make a deal, surely law enforcement will too, eventually uniformly.
 
And that was exactly the right thing to do, whether you're a police officer or a licensed carrier (or even an unlicensed carrier, where legal). Kudos to the chief for not making a scene and pushing the issue there in the store.

From the link, it seems the Chief did push the issue at the store by demanding to see a written policy(even tho the "no weapons" policy was displayed on the front door). He also went home and made an issue of it on Facebook:rolleyes:, which apparently is the thing to do nowadays. He was pushing a shopping cart around the store......shopping, and by what can be gleaned from the link, politely asked to follow the posted policy. IMHO, it was a lack of definition by corporate to it's own employees and a short tempered police chief whining on Facebook that made this trivial incident "news".
 
And no, you still aren't right. 15 USC Chapter 29 deals with the interstate commerce of switchblades.

...
One handed knives are not illegal under federal law.

You do realize I was using the term "one handed" to refer to automatic knives, right? AKA switchblades. I use the term as something of a joke because another exception is for people with only one hand:

15 U.S. Code § 1244
"4) the possession, and transportation upon his person, of any switchblade knife with a blade three inches or less in length by any individual who has only one arm; or"

The law clearly deals with posession, and is not limited to interstate commerce. You can deny as you like but you are simply wrong. On two levels, since my point from the very beginning was that many states copy the federal law. So possession is illegal per federal law where federal law applies (US territories, ships at sea, et cetera), and per state law where the states have bans similar to the federal.

Sorry, click, but I don't care who you think comes out on top. The only way you can disagree with me is by misrepresenting the code (saying it applies only to commerce when it explicitly deals with possession) or ignoring what I am saying about how the federal ban was a template many states followed in drafting their own laws. Either way it's your error.
 
"...Would it not be unfortunate for him to have left his sidearm..." And had to explain why it was in his car after said car was broken into. Chiefs don't have "police emergencies".
Don't have any sympathy for cops these days. Up here, cops have become very highly, over paid, civil servants whose major job is collecting taxes to cover their pay checks.
Here in London, over 90% of the police budget(90 plus million. Nearly a billion in TO.) goes to salaries. Uniform guys get over 90 grand a year plus benefits and fat indexed pensions. One of 'em was running through a residential area discharging his firearm for no reason. No charges. Even though several rounds penetrated homes.
 
Posted by dmancornell: There is no variation in the fact that the desires of private property and business owners aren't included in any of these agreements.
Nor are those agreements relevant to the question. I mentioned them in response to your off-topic comment that police officers are not required by law to perform their duties--which is a stretch; the relevant court rulings simply affirm that communities cannot be held liable for damages resulting from their not doing the impossible.

It is troubling that you argue for special carry privileges from a court ruling on police authority. The gun is a tool, not a symbol of authority.
Yes, it is a tool, used for carrying out police authority, which is vested in all officers all the the time unless they have been suspend or are on administrative leave.

Do you seriously believe that a proprietor can lawfully prevent police officers from performing their duties to maintain the peace in an area that is open to the public?

Are there any court rulings that would support such a position? Where?

Do you know any business owner who would be dumb enough to try?
 
How do you feel about "special rights" granted our active duty and retired military members?
I'm sorry to tell you but I dont know what these supposed 'special rights' to which you are refering to are. Can you please elaborate because the only benefit i have that i ever see that i know of is the occasional 'military discount' which i dont generally even ask for when I am checking out at whatever stor it happens to be but the clerk notices my military id in my wallet while i am waiting to pay and he/she applies it without my knowing. The only other 'benefit' that i know of is the fact that my military weapons training is considered sufficient for proof of training for a CCW for many states. and to be honest that seems to me as a non-issue considering that many states ccw training requirement involves simple safety training and maybe a live fire minimum score. I know that my training was at least sufficient to satisfy the requirement as stated so why not allow said training to apply?
 
I'm sorry to tell you but I dont know what these supposed 'special rights' to which you are refering to are.

There are many government perks and considerations, though whether the fact that a bank can't foreclose on a service member's house using the same rules they would follow for her non-.mil neighbor's (and that is just one example amongst many mostly state and local rules) is a "special right" could be debated.
 
Do you seriously believe that a proprietor can lawfully prevent police officers from performing their duties to maintain the peace in an area that is open to the public?

I didn't know shopping for one's daughter is considered maintaining the peace.

Are there any court rulings that would support such a position? Where?

As I stated before, this is the result of a legal campaign by government employees to obtain special privileges. Government courts will always be friendly to government functionaries. It doesn't make their rulings just or equal. In many states what the cop did is legal. It's still wrong and unjust and it seems like many people here agree.

As an aside, arguing that police is required for maintaining the peace inside a private business seems like a stretch. I'm not a lawyer but that seems like the role of the loss prevention officer who dared offend the authority of the police.
 
I didn't know shopping for one's daughter is considered maintaining the peace.

I'm a bit worried we're talking past each other, but this hits the nail on the head. The question of the moment seems to be should an officer be bound by the same rules everyone else is bound by when he is NOT acting out his official duties?

I don't think anyone has suggested that an officer in pursuit of a criminal, serving a warrant, or even just walking his beat during his shift could be denied access to a privately owned but open-to-the-public place if he didn't disarm first. Though that would be an interesting court case.

But are his official duties an "always and everywhere" sort of thing, such that if he's in a public place, his authority as an agent of the state negates any other rules and policies? I believe the laws of many states do usually indicate that various weapons carry prohibitions do not apply to law officers "when acting in their official capacity..." or some such language, though I may be mistaken.

If an officer walks past a "no guns" sign to get his hair cut, or have beers with his pals, or watch a ball game, or (sorry, but to really put a point on it) to get a private dance at a gentlemen's club :)o), and the owner of the establishment says, "I HATE guns, I don't want ANY guns in here, even yours." Does the officer have some recourse to say, "you can't prohibit me from entering while armed?"

I don't believe so.
 
Ed Ames said:
The law clearly deals with posession, and is not limited to interstate commerce. You can deny as you like but you are simply wrong.

Did you read the link? No, of course not, or you wouldn't have posted again.

Did you read the whole law, not just the part you quoted? No, of course not, or you wouldn't have posted in the first place.

This is getting silly.

Hint: Read section 1244 this time.

...it's always the people who only read part of the law...
 
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