NFA gurus, please comment!

I believe it does. There was a company I want to say Franklin Armory or something that was selling AR pistols that were over 26" OAL and had VFG's on them.

Yep. Not a pistol any more past 26 inches. Its a "other firearm" and can have a forward grip.

According to the BATFE, you cannot count any muzzle devices in OAL unless they are permanently attached. I can't tell from the pic if that flash hider is threaded on, or pinned/welded/integral.

Good point. A pinned and welded on silencer mount is in order.

Here are some resources to check:

Franklin Armory Letter

ATF Letter on VFG, Measurement, Lengths

I don't know if that helps or not.

yugorpk said:

Yep. Not a pistol any more past 26 inches. Its a "other firearm" and can have a forward grip.

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It is still a pistol over 26" until you add the VFG, at which point it is no longer a pistol, and it is too long to be an AOW (unless you actually conceal it). Putting a VFG on a pistol under 26" makes the weapon an AOW right off. There is no Federal law that says a firearm that meets the definition of a pistol is not a pistol just because it is over 26". It is adding the VFG that makes it no longer a pistol, not the OAL.

yugorpk said:

Yep. Not a pistol any more past 26 inches. Its a "other firearm" and can have a forward grip.

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That's what I used to think also, but it turns out I had it slightly wrong. (EDIT: Ha, pjeski is the one who pointed out my mistake last time, and now he beat me to it this time .)

Longer than 26" it's still a pistol; there is no maximum length for a pistol under federal law. However, once you add a vertical foregrip to a pistol that has an overall length greater than 26", it becomes a firearm.

So longer or shorter than 26" doesn't matter if it has no vertical foregrip; it's still a pistol either way. But add a vertical fore grip to a pistol less than 26" and it becomes a Title II AOW and needs a tax stamp, and add a vertical foregrip to a pistol greater than 26" and it becomes a Title I firearm and doesn't need a tax stamp.

The Franklin Armory ATF letter in mdThanatos's post explains it pretty thoroughly.

armoredman said:

Aha. Yes, the muzzle device is threaded and removable, so that would have to be welded on or replaced with a longer pinned/welded muzzle device, like a flash suppressor or muzzle brake. Yeah, like a 9mm firearm of this size NEEDS a muzzle brake! Darn near no recoil already!
Very interesting, so I would need a permanent modification to meet NFA rules for a vertical fore grip, but a MagPul ANGLED fore grip is perfectly acceptable under NFA rules on pistols?

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Yes. I have no idea why, since an angled foregrip is just as much for a second hand as a vertical one, but ATF has on many occasions said that an AFG is OK, but a VFG is not. There is not a legal distinction between an AFG and a VFG.

There are letters out there on this.

yugorpk said:

Yep. Not a pistol any more past 26 inches. Its a "other firearm" and can have a forward grip.

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When you put the VFG on it is no longer designed to be held with one hand and thus is no longer a pistol (as the ATF sees it). This makes it a potential AOW, but long ago the ATF decided to read the "concealable" part of the statutory AOW definition in harmony with the explicit 26" OAL number in the statutory definitions of SBR and SBS. So it is their policy, stated in print many times, to not consider it an AOW. In many of these rulings they have left themselves some wiggle room to consider one concealed on the person an AOW but I am aware of no prosecutions. Probably an add on charge if someone gets up to no good with one of these concealed under a trench coat or duster.

Mike

badkarmamib said:

According to the BATFE, you cannot count any muzzle devices in OAL unless they are permanently attached. I can't tell from the pic if that flash hider is threaded on, or pinned/welded/integral.

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The ATF has always held that a removable device does not count toward barrel length. There are conflicting letters on OAL but the most recent require permanency on the muzzle end but not the butt end to count toward OAL. Crazy outdated law and crazy regs.

Just to be clear, it is the fore grip that makes it no longer a pistol not the length. There are no length limits for pistols. It is when it is no longer a pistol that the OAL becomes critical (to determine if it is an AOW).

Mike

Somewhere between a Magpul AFG I and the classic Thompson machine gun forward grip lies a legal distinction in the eyes of the ATF. I'm not sure it is a question of angle, it might be "prominance" or whether you can wrap the thumb behind. If you design something new, you never know if it is legal until you ask for a determination.

I'd love to see this "Mother may I?" style regulation come face to face with the vagueness standard in court one day.

Mike

I've always wondered what their stance would be on a "horizontal" foregrip, off to the side, kind of like the magazine on a Sten. It's such an asinine regulation anyway considering it's legal to stick a bipod on a pistol. How about a monopod?

They would consider that a VFG. There was a letter posted around here recently that said they generally consider a grip perpendicular to the barrel forward of the magwell to be a VFG. I have never seen guidance as to where AFG ends and VFG begins.

Here's one ATF official's opinion on what a "vertical fore grip" is:

ATF said:

For your information, Federal law currently does not define "Vertical Fore Grip"; however, ATF has determined that a grip of this type is distinguished by being both forward of the magazine well and oriented at a perpendicular (90-degree) angle to the bore of the weapon.

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Get this.

It's as close to a VFG an AFG can get. Yes, it's ATF approved.

Here is mine. It's a fun toy. Most AR pistols with a 10" or 11" barrel meet the standard.