In search of progress

Howa 9700 · Oct 30, 2023

Didn't want to hijack either of the Lee 6000 threads, so started a different one. So issue is, earlier in the year began loading for 9mm, which among other it's many various traits is typically shot in volume. I have found that while one can load for it on a single stage, it is slow going. Start to finish it takes me about an hour to do 50 rounds. Doable but slow, with a lot of stroking and die swapping going on. So knowing there are progressive presses out there, one starts thinking about them as an alternative.

Seems to me there are two issues........those being cost of machines......and how much one has to load to justify a progressive..........and the other is reliability. If the Lee 6000 was absolutely bomb proof and could be reliably setup out of the box to perform flawlessly (or at least as reliable as a single stage), then I'd probably already have one. But after reading thru the threads, not sure the juice is worth the squeeze, at least for the volume I load, which for now is not much. For now, doing small runs of various powder and bullet combinations. But once I settle on a particular load, I can see me doing more.

I'm loading to make sure I have supply and of the type I want, which is not cheap FMJ blammo. Another example would be that of a friend down the road.......he shoots in an outdoor pistol league which runs about 30 weeks out of the year.......and he tells me he shoots 100 rounds a week. On a single stage.........that would be a chore........but if one had a working progressive, a couple hours could run you all month. I have talked to him about reloading (him not me for him) and for now, he is content to buy bulk blammo from online sources......and save his brass when he can. Hard to argue with that, as the cost of blammo is about the same or less than components, even before you start paying for the machine.

But the real hiccup for me is are these presses reliable? After loading shotgun shells on single stage press for several years, a year ago I found a deal on a Mec Grabber, which is supposed to be a reliable machine. I found it is capable of cranking out perfectly good shells, round after round.......until something goes wrong. Then it's a nightmare to get sorted out and working again.

Which I guess brings me to my points. First, about how many rounds does one have to load......either per session or overall......to justify the cost and capacity of a progressive? BTW, the two candidates I'd consider are the Lee 600, and Dillon 550.

Second.......how reliable are they? Lee wins on the cost side.........Dillon on reliability. Considering the potential huge market represented by the legions of 9mm shooters, if Lee has not yet dedicated a team of engineers to address and solve all the problems outlined in Live Life's setup thread ,they really ought to. Get that bomb proof and the market is there. As it stands now, it gives me pause. I want to load ammo, not tinker with the machines. Dillon seems to more reliable, but isn't perfect either, and the cost with all the extras sounds like it is pushing $1,000. That buys a lot of blammo.

So until somebody can sell me on one or the other, guess I'll keep on stroking.

Nature Boy · Oct 30, 2023

You’ll be waiting a very long time for “perfect” to show up at your doorstep.

Mark_Mark · Oct 30, 2023

Howa 9700 said:
Didn't want to hijack either of the Lee 6000 threads, so started a different one. So issue is, earlier in the year began loading for 9mm, which among other it's many various traits is typically shot in volume. I have found that while one can load for it on a single stage, it is slow going. Start to finish it takes me about an hour to do 50 rounds. Doable but slow, with a lot of stroking and die swapping going on. So knowing there are progressive presses out there, one starts thinking about them as an alternative.

Seems to me there are two issues........those being cost of machines......and how much one has to load to justify a progressive..........and the other is reliability. If the Lee 6000 was absolutely bomb proof and could be reliably setup out of the box to perform flawlessly (or at least as reliable as a single stage), then I'd probably already have one. But after reading thru the threads, not sure the juice is worth the squeeze, at least for the volume I load, which for now is not much. For now, doing small runs of various powder and bullet combinations. But once I settle on a particular load, I can see me doing more.

I'm loading to make sure I have supply and of the type I want, which is not cheap FMJ blammo. Another example would be that of a friend down the road.......he shoots in an outdoor pistol league which runs about 30 weeks out of the year.......and he tells me he shoots 100 rounds a week. On a single stage.........that would be a chore........but if one had a working progressive, a couple hours could run you all month. I have talked to him about reloading (him not me for him) and for now, he is content to buy bulk blammo from online sources......and save his brass when he can. Hard to argue with that, as the cost of blammo is about the same or less than components, even before you start paying for the machine.

But the real hiccup for me is are these presses reliable? After loading shotgun shells on single stage press for several years, a year ago I found a deal on a Mec Grabber, which is supposed to be a reliable machine. I found it is capable of cranking out perfectly good shells, round after round.......until something goes wrong. Then it's a nightmare to get sorted out and working again.

Which I guess brings me to my points. First, about how many rounds does one have to load......either per session or overall......to justify the cost and capacity of a progressive? BTW, the two candidates I'd consider are the Lee 600, and Dillon 550.

Second.......how reliable are they? Lee wins on the cost side.........Dillon on reliability. Considering the potential huge market represented by the legions of 9mm shooters, if Lee has not yet dedicated a team of engineers to address and solve all the problems outlined in Live Life's setup thread ,they really ought to. Get that bomb proof and the market is there. As it stands now, it gives me pause. I want to load ammo, not tinker with the machines. Dillon seems to more reliable, but isn't perfect either, and the cost with all the extras sounds like it is pushing $1,000. That buys a lot of blammo.

So until somebody can sell me on one or the other, guess I'll keep on stroking.

Call Dillion and ask them about the Weather and dinner plans! then you know DILLION is 100% worth the 25% extra in cost.

Then you get it home and crank out consistent quality ammo, Their powder drop is rock solid accurate. Pull the indexing pin and you have a 1-2-3 stage press! LOVE YOU DILLION!

jmorris · Oct 30, 2023

Howa 9700 said:
If the Lee 6000 was absolutely bomb proof and could be reliably setup out of the box to perform flawlessly (or at least as reliable as a single stage), then I'd probably already have one.

There is no progressive press I have seen that’s “absolutely bomb proof” and I have have used them from all mfg.

Howa 9700 said:
Second.......how reliable are they? Lee wins on the cost side.........Dillon on reliability.

That seems to depend a lot on the user and what they are putting into them but I have yet to use one that zero issues ever have popped up and I have presses that cost more than some of the vehicles I have owned.

This load master came to me in a box as a bunch of parts, I spent a few days putting it back together and understanding how it works and got it to the point, I could load 100 rounds in under 4 minutes with it but it is still not without minor issues. Like 1:40 and 1:54 I to this video.

100 rounds on a Lee Loadmaster under 4 min

www.youtube.com

Note the handle of the press doesn’t move far from the stoppage point, this is to not disrupt the process in all other stations. Move something and cause an unexpected index (squib) or worse a double charge and a minor issue becomes a larger one. That only comes from experience, the text book way would be to clear the entire shell plate and begin again. Load a few hundred thousand rounds and you can feel the stoppages without mangling components in the press.

Its not unexpected with even with “the good stuff“ like 40 seconds into this Dillon loading around the same 4 min/100 pace.

100+ rounds Dillon 650

www.youtube.com

If you are using too much force and mangle a case, bullet or primer, when these pop up, your frustration level grows, force and jerky movements creep in and then the wheels fall off.

Figure out what is supposed to happen, watch everything so what needs to happen, happens and remember smooth is fast.

bullseye308 · Oct 30, 2023

I load 9mm on a single stage Lee Reloader press. What woks best for me is to batch process ahead of loading time. Ill use a use a universal deprimer and deprime all my cases then wet tumble them. Once dry they all get resized and put up. Another day they get hand primed and then flared(cast bullets) and put up till time to load. I do this all in the living room relaxing and I enjoy the process. When it's time to load, just measure out the powder, ad in the case, and seat the bullet. No chance of a double charge or missed charge, and it's pretty hard to mess anything up. I'm now using the Hornady Lock n Load automatic powder dispenser so by the time it beeps I'm ready for it after seating and gauging the round.

It works for me and up until the plandemic I was doing 16k a year of 9mm, and 2500 each of 38 & 357 like that. All my brass is stored ready to load, unless it's already loaded.

sevt_chevelle · Oct 30, 2023

Some guys wanna finger hump every single piece of brass, and boil everything down to cost, not me.
My TIME is more important than whether or not that Dillon 650 I own is justified.

I have better things in life to do than spending hours reloading and busting up my shoulder.

Seems be people forgot, not all that long ago, 556 was pushing 1k per case and 9mm was 600 per case.
But then again my blammo coming off my Dillon cost no more than the cheap junk and can't do this 21 rds at 30 yds.

BBarn · Oct 30, 2023

Loading 9mm to save money may require tens of thousands of rounds. How much do you shoot? Also consider the space required and time spent for reloading.

blackd24 · Oct 30, 2023

The Lee Classic Turret would be a good compromise from your volume of shooting. It sounds like you’re pretty happy with the single stage.

My Hornady lock n load is very reliable - I only use it to process rounds faster. I probably don’t shoot enough volume to really justify it, but I’d rather save time than money.

GW Staar · Oct 30, 2023

I'm too old to enjoy a single stage the way I used to.....I hurt in more places, I'm less patient, and I don't require accuracy on the level of competition lovers.

Yet, what I still do have is a love of all things mechanical, and the desire to make them better and more efficient......and I don't have a problem with paying attention to details, nor do I have a problem with maintaining machines with constant lubrication, and cleaning. But the ammo I can produce, in a quarter of the time expended is worth it to me.

Progressives, any progressive requires TLC, or they work until you've mucked them up, and sometimes that doesn't take long. If the previous paragraph doesn't describe you, or you don't see yourself ever enjoying the giving of that much attention to your tools....then keep it simple and slow......and when that burns you out, find another hobby.

Dillons are probably best out of the box......probably....but after coaching my brother on a 650, that depends on the user.....his training as an MD did nothing to help him become a good reloader.....but the Dillon has been sorted out long enough and by enough people to make him and it a better fit than anything else.....but perfect it's not....but he has a patient if dumber brother to keep him from any really bad experiences yet........and he never even loaded with a single first.

Now his dumber brother is more into the challenge of making a good basic machine work well.....even if out-of-the-box with no effort types trash them and give them bad reps. If such isn't your cup of tea, stay with the single. The Lee 6000 is an awesome press for the money, but its better with some tweaking......and the primer system still isn't my favorite thing, and maybe it's a challenge I will eventually give up on or bypass and prime on the bench. But it does work, if you stay vigilant, and pay attention to the details.....and I'm still enamored with the machine......it's the 6 stations that work and the press costs nothing compared to the esoteric machines out there.....that still, after spending all that money, require attention to details and TLC...... Did I help.......probably not!

No such thing as an effortless progressive that you can hook a motordrive to and leave and let it work while you spend the day at the office.

The Dillon 550? 4 stations, manual advance? Many love it.....but it never interested me......ask the 550 lovers why they like it..... maybe its closest to that magic outofthebox you're looking for. My first progressive was the RCBS 2000 5 station manual advance with the autoadvance kit in case I didn't like manual advance.........I didn't......manual advance lasted two nights. Maybe patience was the lacking component.....after all....

film495 · Oct 30, 2023

turret press

9mmepiphany · Oct 31, 2023

I've loaded on most progressive presses on the market...OK, I didn't load on a RCBS progressive...and none were flawless out-of-the-box.

I learned to load on a Dillon 550 and have set up a couple of 650 and a 750 with friends. My first press was a Hornady LNL AP, which has pumped out thousands of rounds of 9mm and .45ACP. I got a Lee Pro 6000 when they came out and load .45ACP on it...after they addressed all the issues mentioned on this forum, I got all the updated parts and installed them...and it runs very well. Having said all that, I'm not sure all your requirements will be met by any...because they do require that the operator be engaged in operating it smoothly.

The closest press that I'm aware of that does everything you want after just setting it up, without going overboard on price, is the Mark 7 Apex-10. The only hiccups I ran into when setting it up was tightening a couple of things too tightly. It takes a bit of finesse to get the swagging station setup. I set up mine to load 9mm into military cases and my first run went very smoothly...I loaded 300 rounds for a match in about half and hour

Show Me · Oct 31, 2023

I read about,dream about a progressive but there is a lot going on at one time. I can chunk them out with my auto index ok. A coworker set up an auto bullet feeder for his and it works most of the time, sorta

GW Staar · Oct 31, 2023

Yes there is a lot going on.......
When I got my 2000 I didn't think I needed or wanted case or bullet feeders, so the press was a cheaper way to have five stations and quality than going with an expensive 650 Dillon. And IMO still the 4 stations and manual feeding of a 550 just adds to the juggling

After a month or two I realized that automating case and bullet feeding would make it simpler not harder.....so I made my own case feeder, and bought a Hornady pistol bullet feeder. Why the change in need?.....as you said too many things to juggle at once. With case and bullets coming on their own I could FOCUS on what is most important.......primer feeding and powder charge. Manageable brain work as long as the feeders work well......and my 3d printed feeders work well every time.......

bfalcon00 · Oct 31, 2023

With the new Dillon 750 out I am seeing some great prices on used 650s. I would take a look at picking up a used Dillon 650 if I were you. I grabbed one up just for case prep to keep the dirt and mess off my loading press.

jmorris · Nov 1, 2023

GW Staar said:
After a month or two I realized that automating case and bullet feeding would make it simpler not harder.....so I made my own case feeder, and bought a Hornady pistol bullet feeder. Why the change in need?.....as you said too many things to juggle at once. With case and bullets coming on their own I could FOCUS on what is most important.......primer feeding and powder charge.

I use a powder check die for that and once I have a system humming, I try not to change things. Probably why I have several progressives in the same caliber, just for different loads.

I even put this system together a decade or so ago now, lets me focus on case gauging and boxing ammo, while keeping it full.

Computer controlled Dillon 1050

www.youtube.com

1000 rounds in 52 minutes, if I do my job and my arm doesn’t feel any different than when I started.

kmw1954 · Nov 1, 2023

Howa 9700 said:
Seems to me there are two issues........those being cost of machines......and how much one has to load to justify a progressive..........and the other is reliability.

So until somebody can sell me on one or the other, guess I'll keep on stroking.

In all honesty only you can determine what it takes to justify the purchase of any tool. That is not something any of us can do for you. Advise is about the best we can do for you.

for my bench I have a Single Stage press, and old 3 Hole Lee turret press, a new revised model of the Lee 4 Hole Turret press, a Lee Pro1000 and a Lee Auto Breech Lock Pro. In complete seriousness I only use 3 of them. The Single stage, the 3 hole and the Pro1000

I learned to load beck in 1980 on a single stage press and was at that time only loading 357Mag. Then because of life changes I quit shooting for a long time. So when I started up again with pistol I already knew I did not want to reload on a single stage. As you point out it is very time consuming.

Today I use the Single stage and 3 Hole press for load development or very short runs otherwise it is done on the Pro1000 and I will usually run 500 at a time of each caliber. With this I may only load for pistol 3 or 4 times per year, but with this I do no have a Thousand dollars in equipment sitting idle for 10 months of the year.

Yet with my target rifle loads I load very small batches frequently and use the Single stage press for brass prep and then the 3 Hole turret to drop powder charges and seat bullets. BTW all the presses I use with the exception of the 4Hole presses were all purchased Used. So locate a nice used one and get busy!

GW Staar · Nov 1, 2023

jmorris said:
I use a powder check die for that and once I have a system humming, I try not to change things. Probably why I have several progressives in the same caliber, just for different loads.

I even put this system together a decade or so ago now, lets me focus on case gauging and boxing ammo, while keeping it full.

Computer controlled Dillon 1050

www.youtube.com

1000 rounds in 52 minutes, if I do my job and my arm doesn’t feel any different than when I started.

I would do the same thing if I ever needed to load 1000 rounds of anything in 24 hours let alone 1 hour.......and if I was younger.......but I've never wanted to be a part of the competition side of the hobby, nor am I going to make an arsenal for dooms day.......so there's no incentive to emulate you this time.......good thing too.....I'd most likely make a mess of it.

But kudos to you, anyway! I never fail to be impressed by your abilities, but I'm wise enough to to stay within mine......which in spite of my best efforts to resist, now decrease a bit every day....

Todd NE WY · Nov 1, 2023

I use a no longer available new RCBS 2000, its a 5 station progressive. Mine is manual index, they do have an auto index upgrade but I like the manual advance. From me its not about absolute speed, I take my time and usually load 50 to 100 rounds in 30 minutes to an hour. For me this is substantially faster than a single stage and still allows me to look in each case before I seat the bullet. Yes it was expensive but my wife told me to buy it so I could spend less time loading and more time with the family and still have the same amount of ammo to shoot.

JEBruns · Nov 2, 2023

I started metallic case loading for pistol with an RCBS Ammomaster progressive. It was a good loader, but seemed to always need some tinkering. When I decided to move up to a machine I could put a case feeder on, I went through what the OP is going through. Looked hard at some of the cheaper, not blue, presses. But much research showed the tinkering factor was still there. So I spent the money and got a 650.

Yeah, there were some minor setup things and some stuff to add, but once dialed, it fully delivered on almost boring non-stop production. Just add components.

I've since sold that and moved to a Dillon 1100 with case and bullet feed. That is quite a machine, but I know above what you are looking at. I shoot about 200 rounds a week, so easier to justify.

I just bought a Dillon 550c, strictly for 6.5CM. It gives a much more consistent OAL because of the way it's shell plates are designed. Still getting used to it, but I'm glad I don't use that for mass production. I call it a semi-progressive. It's a good press, just not as fast as a true progressive. And it really needs a 5th station for a powder check, IMO. Still a big step up from a single stage though.

All of the Dillon's have been set and forget. Do the maintenance and pull the handle. Just what I was looking for.

jmorris · Nov 2, 2023

JEBruns said:
I just bought a Dillon 550c….I call it a semi-progressive. It's a good press, just not as fast as a true progressive.

I read this a lot, if it performs all operations concurrently and you start with with one case and once full, each stroke drops a completed round, it’s a progressive press.

If it’s not an auto indexing press, it’s just a manual indexing progressive press.

If you have a car with a manual transmission, you still have a ”true car”, it’s just not an automatic.

GeoDudeFlorida · Nov 2, 2023

jmorris said:
If you have a car with a manual transmission, you still have a ”true car”, it’s just not an automatic

Need to update that to the 21st century. Not that many new drivers know what a manual transmission was. How about “Even if it doesn’t have self-drive, it is still a car.” ?

Things change and expectations change too but sometimes the two things are out of sync.

JEBruns · Nov 3, 2023

jmorris said:
I read this a lot, if it performs all operations concurrently and you start with with one case and once full, each stroke drops a completed round, it’s a progressive press.

If it’s not an auto indexing press, it’s just a manual indexing progressive press.

If you have a car with a manual transmission, you still have a ”true car”, it’s just not an automatic.

Yeah, I know. But to me, it must self index for me to call it a progressive. How about manual-progressive?

Not putting the press down. I just bought one. Just pointing it out.

GW Staar · Nov 3, 2023

Progressive yes. 5 or more holes no. Still popular, in spite of only 4 stations, no auto-advance and no built-in case feeder......amazed. Only the Dillon name gets away with that.

But I've been guilty of using blinders.....my brand new 1968 GTO, had a 400 engine, 4 speed manual trans., and ran like a bat out of hell. Beautiful yellow 2 door with BLACK! interior. Air conditioning? Hell no, that AC compressor would have slowed it down......Just rolled the windows down in New Mexico summers.....dumb dumb dumb........and it wasn't a Chevy or a Ford, or a Hemi. Still a divergent.........I like green presses, with a little red on the side. Different strokes.....

In search of progress

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