Old NFO
Member
Will do on both counts 280 Plus! Will be on Blue Ridge with C7F for a few days.
Battleships
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Will do on both counts 280 Plus! Will be on Blue Ridge with C7F for a few days.
Carl N. Brown
Member
better late than never....
I got my son and grandson to go on a tour of the Alabama at Mobile
and they enjoyed it more than they expected. My son drove us 600
miles and we stayed at the motel next to the museum park. We made
a weekend of it. My son was intrigued by the SR71 in the air museum.
Touring the submarine Drum was also worth the trip.
We went up to the control station in the tower, down to the powder
room under turret B and inside turret X (aft 16 inch) awesome. I read
during the last hurricane that a number of people elected to ride out
the storm on board USS Alabama. I was tempted to join them.
One ship I wish they had saved was BB43 Tennessee.
The Dictionary of America Naval Fighting Vessels (DANFS) contains this
passage about battleship BB43 Tennessee at Iwo Jima, Feb. 1945:
"The days after the landing were a steady routine of call fire and
counterbattery work as Japanese guns continued to reveal themselves
by opening fire on the hovering support ships before being located
and taken out. For this purpose, it had been found that single-gun
salvoes at close range, using "pointer fire" (in which the gun is
directly aimed by telescopic sight), were the most precise and
effective. The notion of using a 14-inch naval gun for sniping was
rather new, but it seemed to work very well."
Normally the big guns were fired by following directions of the fire
control stations in the conning tower and firing 3, 6, 9 or 12 gun
broadsides. For these "sniping" operations, the gun crew aimed one
gun with a telescopic sight and fired single shots. Some sniper rifle!
The last time I checked, a 14-inch naval shell required a powder
charge of 3,500,000 grains for a 9,800,000 grain projectile.
I believe a .30-06 blank was used as the primer. The Hornady
Manual does not cover this round.
[Gun related material added.]
I got my son and grandson to go on a tour of the Alabama at Mobile
and they enjoyed it more than they expected. My son drove us 600
miles and we stayed at the motel next to the museum park. We made
a weekend of it. My son was intrigued by the SR71 in the air museum.
Touring the submarine Drum was also worth the trip.
We went up to the control station in the tower, down to the powder
room under turret B and inside turret X (aft 16 inch) awesome. I read
during the last hurricane that a number of people elected to ride out
the storm on board USS Alabama. I was tempted to join them.
One ship I wish they had saved was BB43 Tennessee.
The Dictionary of America Naval Fighting Vessels (DANFS) contains this
passage about battleship BB43 Tennessee at Iwo Jima, Feb. 1945:
"The days after the landing were a steady routine of call fire and
counterbattery work as Japanese guns continued to reveal themselves
by opening fire on the hovering support ships before being located
and taken out. For this purpose, it had been found that single-gun
salvoes at close range, using "pointer fire" (in which the gun is
directly aimed by telescopic sight), were the most precise and
effective. The notion of using a 14-inch naval gun for sniping was
rather new, but it seemed to work very well."
Normally the big guns were fired by following directions of the fire
control stations in the conning tower and firing 3, 6, 9 or 12 gun
broadsides. For these "sniping" operations, the gun crew aimed one
gun with a telescopic sight and fired single shots. Some sniper rifle!
The last time I checked, a 14-inch naval shell required a powder
charge of 3,500,000 grains for a 9,800,000 grain projectile.
I believe a .30-06 blank was used as the primer. The Hornady
Manual does not cover this round.
[Gun related material added.]
Attachments
DarthBubba
Member
U.S.S. New Jersey
Wanted to chime in with my support for a tour of the U.S.S. New Jersey.
Had a fun walking tour of the ship when I was visiting Philly the ship is across the river berthed in it's name sake.
The tour personnel were knowledgeable and most were retired United States Navy personnel who had served on the ship. We got to tour one of each type of gun turret and went on an extensive walking tour of the ship from bridge to 3 decks above the bilge and from fore to aft.
All and all a fun tour I highly recommend it.
DarthBubba
Wanted to chime in with my support for a tour of the U.S.S. New Jersey.
Had a fun walking tour of the ship when I was visiting Philly the ship is across the river berthed in it's name sake.
The tour personnel were knowledgeable and most were retired United States Navy personnel who had served on the ship. We got to tour one of each type of gun turret and went on an extensive walking tour of the ship from bridge to 3 decks above the bilge and from fore to aft.
All and all a fun tour I highly recommend it.
DarthBubba
dasmi
Member
If you're in the San Diego area, you might want to check out the Russian B-39 Foxtrot class sub at the San Diego Maritime museum. I just toured it. Same boat as the Foxtrot up in Long Beach, but not nearly as far away from San Diego. It's next to the Berkeley, and aft of the Star of India. Can't miss it, big red star on the conning tower.
http://www.sdmaritime.com/ContentPage.asp?ContentID=177
Also, the USS Dolphin will be participating in the Fesitval Of Sail in San Diego.
http://www.sdmaritime.com/ContentPage.asp?ContentID=172
If anyone wants to meet up for tours and lunch, I'll be going on Saturday the 20th, and Sunday the 21st. PM me and we'll talk.
http://www.sdmaritime.com/ContentPage.asp?ContentID=177
Also, the USS Dolphin will be participating in the Fesitval Of Sail in San Diego.
http://www.sdmaritime.com/ContentPage.asp?ContentID=172
If anyone wants to meet up for tours and lunch, I'll be going on Saturday the 20th, and Sunday the 21st. PM me and we'll talk.
jason10mm
Member
I've done the BB and sub tours in Hawaii and Mobile, the carriers at Corpus Cristi and SC (with sub and destroyer), the sub in San Francisco, and the BB North Carolina. I have to do the BB in Houston before I leave Texas, and I think there is a sub in Galveston. I can never tire of those tours. I would love to see the German u-boat in Chicago and the Constitition in Boston.
I hope a 688 or a boomer goes on display at some point.
I hope a 688 or a boomer goes on display at some point.
FYI.
Proceedings of the US Naval Institute (August 2005) has an interesting writeup on Big Boats (BB's.)
Old, too labor intensive, limited gun range, limited missile carrying capacity, lack of anti-submarine and anti-aircraft capabilities, lack of chemical and biological warfare protection, fuel guzzlers, antique propulsion, and very, very expensive (over $2 billion per ship) to reactivate ....... among other problems.
Proceedings of the US Naval Institute (August 2005) has an interesting writeup on Big Boats (BB's.)
Old, too labor intensive, limited gun range, limited missile carrying capacity, lack of anti-submarine and anti-aircraft capabilities, lack of chemical and biological warfare protection, fuel guzzlers, antique propulsion, and very, very expensive (over $2 billion per ship) to reactivate ....... among other problems.
dasmi
Member
Yep. And still incredibly cool.
richyoung
Member
I'll address these one by one...
Yep, almost ten whole years older than the B-52, which we were still using last time I looked, and much younger than the 1911 the Marines are still buying....NOT a persuasive argument - we routinely Service Life Extension Program carriers that have seen 30 solid years of steaming - the Iowas have much less water under their keels...
The Marines have volunteered to fund manning the gun crews, or supply them. Former secretary Lehman says automation can reduce the rest, as well as manning only half of the engine rooms for routine steaming...
Thats just a plain fib - 50 km rang with old WWII rounds, MORE range than an unrefueled carrier attack plane with rounds on the drawing board that use technology already used in other artillery shells. An out-and-out falsehood.
...somewhat true, but MISLEADING - their duty will be to provide naval gunfire support for marine amphibious landings - we have plenty of other ships to sling missles, and more capacity can be added in refit...
...again, true but misleading - the other amphibous task force ships, including the transports will, like the battleship and even the LCS that the battleship would be in lieu of, (although admittedly to a lesser extent), rely on the dedicated ASW/AAW assets like the Aegis (sp?0 cruisers we already have and will have to accompany the landing force anyway...
...again - NOT true - poison gas was well-known before WWII, and I'm sure it's designed capability against that has been enhanced over the years. They are called "water-tight/air-tight" doors and bulkheads for partially that reason...
true, but it's not like an oil-fired carrier or LHA is exactly cheap to fuel either. The Iowa class was built with Pacific warfare in mind, so they have plenty of fuel storage and range - essentially a non-issue....
...and yet the Camden and Sacremento seem to do just fine with their propulsion, and guess where it came from? A never-completed Iowa class BB named the Kentucky. I know they were still steaming until recently, maybe still? They had the reputation of being very reliable and fast ships, and would even race other naval vessels. Again, a non-issue...
...still less than ONE of the pie-in-the-sky LCS, which won't be around for ten years, if ever, and can't do as much as far even if it IS ever built....
Ya got me there - I can't really address that one.
If you aren't bucking for rear admiral or a cozy contractor job, and you think Marines might have to seize a beachhead sometime in the next decade, (Liberia, anyone?) and you want them to get heavier support than a dual-purpose 5" can provide, the answer is clear ...but NOT popular with the navy brass.
Yep, almost ten whole years older than the B-52, which we were still using last time I looked, and much younger than the 1911 the Marines are still buying....NOT a persuasive argument - we routinely Service Life Extension Program carriers that have seen 30 solid years of steaming - the Iowas have much less water under their keels...
The Marines have volunteered to fund manning the gun crews, or supply them. Former secretary Lehman says automation can reduce the rest, as well as manning only half of the engine rooms for routine steaming...
Thats just a plain fib - 50 km rang with old WWII rounds, MORE range than an unrefueled carrier attack plane with rounds on the drawing board that use technology already used in other artillery shells. An out-and-out falsehood.
...somewhat true, but MISLEADING - their duty will be to provide naval gunfire support for marine amphibious landings - we have plenty of other ships to sling missles, and more capacity can be added in refit...
...again, true but misleading - the other amphibous task force ships, including the transports will, like the battleship and even the LCS that the battleship would be in lieu of, (although admittedly to a lesser extent), rely on the dedicated ASW/AAW assets like the Aegis (sp?0 cruisers we already have and will have to accompany the landing force anyway...
...again - NOT true - poison gas was well-known before WWII, and I'm sure it's designed capability against that has been enhanced over the years. They are called "water-tight/air-tight" doors and bulkheads for partially that reason...
true, but it's not like an oil-fired carrier or LHA is exactly cheap to fuel either. The Iowa class was built with Pacific warfare in mind, so they have plenty of fuel storage and range - essentially a non-issue....
...and yet the Camden and Sacremento seem to do just fine with their propulsion, and guess where it came from? A never-completed Iowa class BB named the Kentucky. I know they were still steaming until recently, maybe still? They had the reputation of being very reliable and fast ships, and would even race other naval vessels. Again, a non-issue...
...still less than ONE of the pie-in-the-sky LCS, which won't be around for ten years, if ever, and can't do as much as far even if it IS ever built....
Ya got me there - I can't really address that one.
If you aren't bucking for rear admiral or a cozy contractor job, and you think Marines might have to seize a beachhead sometime in the next decade, (Liberia, anyone?) and you want them to get heavier support than a dual-purpose 5" can provide, the answer is clear
...but NOT popular with the navy brass.dasmi
Member
The USS Midway did perfectly fine from 47 to 92 with it's antique propulsion. As far as I know, she's still got the same turbines, bearings, gears, etc, as the day she was launched.
Even though they're physically old, some of the old BB's that are still in mothballs have fewer steaming miles on them than a 10 year old DDG or FFG.
I'm a carrier sailor, but I always thought that when the crap hit the fan, I'd rather be on a BB than a CV!
I'm a carrier sailor, but I always thought that when the crap hit the fan, I'd rather be on a BB than a CV!
I remember the interview they had with some raghead after we had gone to lebanon with one of hte BB's THEY HATED the BB because they had no warning that anything was on th way until the world blew up in their face. caves offered no protection because the 2600 pound projectiles arriving at the end of a near ballistic flight would just go as deep as the caves. The ships do have a purpose, the bigger issue would be to develop a new one built from the ground up as a way of carrying that weapons platform(16" guns) and do it in a smaller less costly to operate manner. With modern assisted base munitions, a 100km gun is not a pipe dream and being able to repeated strike targets no matter the weather is a very powerful force multiplier. If not a new platform the cost of rebuilding one of these into a lower profile, more defensable and simpler to operate, warship is well below the cost of building a new platform that can meet the need as this ship does.
New ships are designed to be built around guided missles with the intent that one accurate shot beats a mass of near misses. This is often true, but the use of a battleship in a land bombardment is to create a barrier to troop movement to allow your troops onto a beach or landing area with a minimum of risk.
New ships are designed to be built around guided missles with the intent that one accurate shot beats a mass of near misses. This is often true, but the use of a battleship in a land bombardment is to create a barrier to troop movement to allow your troops onto a beach or landing area with a minimum of risk.
bubbygator
Member
I served my first Midshipman Cruise aboard the Iowa in 1957 under Capt. F. Julian Becton. We sailed to Rio De Janiero; held passing the equator celebration. All us 4th classmen served as less than Seaman Apprentice as far as work details went, but the PO's & Gunny's weren't allowed to rough us up any - it was all straight hard work. We had 1st classmen serving as our Division Officers, & they got to sample Officer's work (I later had my 1st class Cruise on a tin-can).
I had General Quarters station as a shell-passer in a 5" gun turret. The 5" shells weren't too heavy, I'd guess less than 20 pounds. They came up from the magazine below-decks in a dual elevator, first one side, then the other. The fuze was set automatically by signals from Fire Control as they traveled in the elevator. They were safe because the fuze was activated by the force of firing. At the top, we lifted them out, turned, and kind of "plopped" them in the pusher tray in front of the big brass powder shell. The gun captain then pushed the button to ram them in, and they fired on signal from Fire Control. Everything could be operated manually as well, even to carrying both the shells & cartridges up from below-decks & setting the fuze by hand.
We had tours of all the facilities on designated study (off-work) days; the 15" gun turret & below-decks were very interesting. I later heard they had an explosion in one of the 15" turrets, but I never saw what the details were. The bags of powder were huge - you couldn't man-handle anything, every movement was designed to be a specific way & machine assisted. They said at the time that every time they fired a single shell, they threw the cost of a Cadillac over the side.
The ship was huge; but we lived there & every space was occupied with men who knew how to make the ship work - to accomplish the assigned mission. I could not have asked for a better introduction to the "real" Navy.
I had General Quarters station as a shell-passer in a 5" gun turret. The 5" shells weren't too heavy, I'd guess less than 20 pounds. They came up from the magazine below-decks in a dual elevator, first one side, then the other. The fuze was set automatically by signals from Fire Control as they traveled in the elevator. They were safe because the fuze was activated by the force of firing. At the top, we lifted them out, turned, and kind of "plopped" them in the pusher tray in front of the big brass powder shell. The gun captain then pushed the button to ram them in, and they fired on signal from Fire Control. Everything could be operated manually as well, even to carrying both the shells & cartridges up from below-decks & setting the fuze by hand.
We had tours of all the facilities on designated study (off-work) days; the 15" gun turret & below-decks were very interesting. I later heard they had an explosion in one of the 15" turrets, but I never saw what the details were. The bags of powder were huge - you couldn't man-handle anything, every movement was designed to be a specific way & machine assisted. They said at the time that every time they fired a single shell, they threw the cost of a Cadillac over the side.
The ship was huge; but we lived there & every space was occupied with men who knew how to make the ship work - to accomplish the assigned mission. I could not have asked for a better introduction to the "real" Navy.
Peter M. Eick
Member
I got the honor of touring the Texas here in Houston with a the father of a friend who served during WW2. It was fascinating to walk the ship with the docent and the father and he took us to his duty station, showed us his bunk, talked about where he was during the battles, who stood where, how things worked etc. I learned a lot, and the docent (who was one of the senior guys) just kept peppering him with questions. I don't know who got more out of it.
We were invited back to do the "hardhat" tour where you see the real guts of the ship. Maybe when it cools off.
We were invited back to do the "hardhat" tour where you see the real guts of the ship. Maybe when it cools off.
dasmi
Member
Camden is still active, slated for decomissioning in September 2005, Sacramento was decomissioned Oct 1, 2004.
richyoung
Member
Thanks dasmi! Looks like a possible source of spares for a reactivated Iowa!
aerod1
Member
I was stationed aboard the USS Midway from 1962 - 1965. I worked on the flight deck in V-1 division (blue shirt). On July 7, 2004 three of my former shipmates and I walked the decks of the Midway once again. It had been fourty years since any of us had seen each other or the Midway. I realized a couple of guys were looking for me when I stumbled through "Classmates.com" in October of 2003. Yes they have a military section. It was a wonderful and emotional reunion. The four of us were the closest of friends back then. They were surprized to find out I am the resident "gun nut" of the group. They are all pro gun but I got involved in guns while in my thirties. I was never anti gun... just wasn't interested in them at the time.
It is fantastic that the Midway is a museum instead of scrap.
I have a lot of memories there.
Jim
It is fantastic that the Midway is a museum instead of scrap.
I have a lot of memories there.
Jim
cracked butt
Member
The only sub I've seen is the USS Cobia, docked at Manitowoc Maritime Museum in wisconsin. Shipyards there built WWII submarines including the Cobia. I've also toured a shipyard there while in gradeschool that makes wooden ships, including Navy minesweepers. Neat stuff.
Several veteran's groups were trying to bring the Heavy Cruiser USS Des Moines to Milwuakee as a museum, but all of the socialist blissninnies whined about how a war machine would soil their lakefront
Last I heard, it might be permanantly parked in Sheboygan, where people and the local government are not only a lot more appreciative of such historical artifacts, but they want it to go there, though there are a few technical problems involved. I hope it ends up in Wisconsin, it would be a great thing to take my kid to see on weekends.
Several veteran's groups were trying to bring the Heavy Cruiser USS Des Moines to Milwuakee as a museum, but all of the socialist blissninnies whined about how a war machine would soil their lakefront
Last I heard, it might be permanantly parked in Sheboygan, where people and the local government are not only a lot more appreciative of such historical artifacts, but they want it to go there, though there are a few technical problems involved. I hope it ends up in Wisconsin, it would be a great thing to take my kid to see on weekends.scout26
Member
CB,
To veer slightly off-topic. There used to be a guy off I-94 (I think)that had a collection of "Land Ships". Is it still there. I can't remember whether he did "tours" or not. I just remember seeing tanks, where there should not have been tanks.
U505 at the Muesem of Science and Industry is tooooooo
To veer slightly off-topic. There used to be a guy off I-94 (I think)that had a collection of "Land Ships". Is it still there. I can't remember whether he did "tours" or not. I just remember seeing tanks, where there should not have been tanks.
U505 at the Muesem of Science and Industry is tooooooo
cracked butt
Member
Scout, I've heard of the guy with the tanks, but I've never been there or seen it.
I heard that they have redone the U-boat exhibit at the S&I museum, probably worth a trip down there once my kid gets a little older to see it. last time I was there I could only see part of the outside of the ship.
I heard that they have redone the U-boat exhibit at the S&I museum, probably worth a trip down there once my kid gets a little older to see it. last time I was there I could only see part of the outside of the ship.
oneshooter
Member
Bubbygator,
I believe that the standard HE projectal for the 5" navel rifle weighs 54#, with a 25# propellent charge.
Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
I believe that the standard HE projectal for the 5" navel rifle weighs 54#, with a 25# propellent charge.
Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
marley
Member
I just wanted to say that there are two PT boats at battleship cove. My grandfather still drives up there once a summer and gives tours. He was on the 282 and on the 190 boats. One of them is a higgins and the other is an elco. They are the 617 and the 796. These are 60yo expendable boats made out of wood. They burned most of the boats at the end of the war because they were worn out and two expencive to ship home. Family members of the PT boaters are allowed on to the boats. The Marines are taught that the navy left them on the Canal all alone. I know that there were men in wooden boats fighting cruisers with torpedos that did not work. Later there were gunboats that fought the barges that the japs were using to bring in fresh troops. My Grandfather's story about the night his boat was rammed by another PT boat and how the bow was just gone is very scary. As a Virginiain I have seen the Wisconsin and the North Carolinia. Charlie the allagator is always around. I have seen all of the ships at battleship cove. Go see them any of them so they will be around for the Children. They will need to know what happened years from now. Patrick
natedog
Member
Darn, I must've missed 'em. I took a quick walk through of the Olympia on a trip a few weeks ago, but it was so dang hot I didn't stay on more than 10 minutes.
MSGT9410
Member
I went to the USS North Carolina not long ago. Here are some of the pictures I took while there:
(sorry about the size, dunno how to do thumbnails. Mods, feel free to edit if you feel necessary)
Gotta love the 20mm. The main deck is lined with these up and down the sides.
View from the bridge of the vessel
16-in. guns ( )
A USCG vessel that was moored across the river. Notice the 40mm BOFORS turrets on the USS NC. Quite a few of them on board.
(sorry about the size, dunno how to do thumbnails. Mods, feel free to edit if you feel necessary)
Gotta love the 20mm. The main deck is lined with these up and down the sides.
View from the bridge of the vessel
16-in. guns (
)
A USCG vessel that was moored across the river. Notice the 40mm BOFORS turrets on the USS NC. Quite a few of them on board.
misANTHrope
Member
Well, OK, I guess I'll chip in with some of my North Carolina photos I took during my last visit this past May.
View from the stern of #3 turret
Guns of freedom
Ramming powder bags into the breech of a 16-incher
My dad checking out the view through the optical director in the 16" turret
40mm Bofors quad mount
My version of the bridge view
Powder cans down in the magazine
View from the stern of #3 turret
Guns of freedom
Ramming powder bags into the breech of a 16-incher
My dad checking out the view through the optical director in the 16" turret
40mm Bofors quad mount
My version of the bridge view
Powder cans down in the magazine
Darth Ruger
Member
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2005
- Messages
- 525
I'll jump in here, too. Someone mentioned the USS Pampanito, a WWII sub at Pier 45 in San Francisco, close to Fisherman's Wharf. If you get a chance, it's a good tour below decks. Sank five enemy ships during the war.
If you've never had the opportunity to tour a submarine, check out this link. You can click and drag on the photos to scroll around 360 degrees inside the various rooms of the Pampanito:
USS Pampanito
If you've never had the opportunity to tour a submarine, check out this link. You can click and drag on the photos to scroll around 360 degrees inside the various rooms of the Pampanito:
USS Pampanito
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