Vulcan Arms AR-180 clone

I have no experience with or knowledge of this weapon, but...I mean, it's Vulcan/Hesse. It might not suck. I guess.

And...is that a FAL/STG handguard on that thing? It sure looks like a bipod-cut handguard for a FAL. I guess that puts a whole new spin on "parts gun" I mean, that's a part from a whole different gun.

Mike

Upon further examination...

is that picture a Photoshop deal? It looks like the handguard and forearm of a FAL, the lower of an AR, and something else in the upper.

On an auction site, too?

DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

Mike

And...upon even further reflection...

http://www.vulcanarmament.com/cgist...setup=1&ida=228&idp=0&his=0&cart_id=69580.556

Turns out I was right, partly. "AR type" lower ( ), FAL forearm and stock, and a something the good lads at Vulcan ginned up for the upper.

Eh. I dunno, dude. The gun is real, but...

Based on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act, Vulcan Group Inc. offers no warranty on its product line.

Click to expand...

I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about it. Maybe someone else has experience.

Mike

PS I <3 that website, too. Technology's Tip of the Spear! Machineguns of the Special Forces! Arsenal of Freedom! Lady Liberty feeling the Quickening. It's like what happens when the Mall Ninja becomes a web designer.

No accounting for (no) taste

I actually like the look of that gun -- but from reading so many harsh statements about Vulcan, I'd certainly be reluctant to own one.

I wonder what the biggest reputation turnaround (for the better) in the history of gun manufacturing has been, and whether Vulcan could top it

timothy

Lol the quickening. Been a while

But I think that rifle might fill a special niche in Canada - where the AR-180 is banned

It's # 65 on 'the list'.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdo...l=L&statuteyear=all&lengthannual=50&length=50

I really think you could probably have smith put a chromed lined 16" AR barrel on an AR-180B, with much less worry then going with this sucker.

Not to be troublesome, why exactly do you want a chrome lined barrel? I often find people are after them for reason's that make purchasing a 180B a less then ideal choice.

I understand the 16" barrel, but honestly a 20" really isn't to bad. I've run my AR-180B through a shoot house without any trouble.

-Jenrick

OK let me first say that I've never owned, held the rifle in question.

BUT......

I am sorry and embarrassed to say that I have owned a Vulcan V94. For about 4 months before before quickly selling it again on gunbroker.com. I would never buy another gun from Vulcan, no matter what it is.

I wasn't impressed with the fit and finish, the fake silencer came loose after a month and I had to send the gun back. Customer service was horrible, they flat out blamed me for the fake silencer comming loose, they said I was being too rough with the gun! Funny it was practically brand new and I always kept it in the case. Constant FTF issues with every type of ammo I tried. These among other problems taught me a valuble lesson, friends don't let friends buy Vulcan firearms!

Now to be fair, maybe I had a dud from the start, maybe they have cleaned up their act since I delt with them. Maybe it was just the type of gun I bought, maybe their AR-180's are perfectly fine. So please don't base your decision solely on my bad experiences, others may feel completely the opposite. After all they are still in business so they must be doing something right! Honestly for less than $700 it may not be a bad deal and at least its something different than your average AR, AK or FAL.

I'd be curious to know myself how these guns are, not that I'd buy one

Good Luck with your decision!

OpFlash: Getting all the copper out is a hotly debated topic among benchrest types/other sub MOA folks. A tuned NM AR might get some benifit from it, maybe. A regular run and gun AR, which defineately includes the 180B is not going to see any huge improvements by removing all the copper. The 180B is in my experience a 2-3 MOA rifle, that with the right ammo and a right barrel temp can shoot 1 MOA. It's not however a consitent sub-1MOA rifle, which is where pulling copper fouling out is gonna help.

Having said, that does not mean that it's gonna hurt anything to get out the copper in general. Some rifles do shoot better with some fouling, it's just gonna take experience with yours to find out.

In general I clean my AR-180B every couple hundred rounds, so usually 3-4 weeks. Cleans up just fine with no elbow grease or brushing, YMMV.

Oh and if you wanted a 16" barrel cause of weight, the 180B is already WAY lighter then a AR-15 or it's siblings.

-Jenrick

I would run away from any firearm from Vulcan, Hesse, or whatever name they change to to wipe out there reputation.

FWIW, having the 1:7" barrel will be a little limiting as to what type of ammo you can use.


IMO, Hesse changed their name to Vulcan purely to escape their bad reputation. Yes, they may have improved, but more than likely they're hoping to capture a market that hasn't heard of them.

That can't even be considered a clone. I mean a 180 upper with an AR lower and an STG handguard. Oh yeah, stay away from vulcan/hesse.

Suspect at best

I recently bought an V18-100 on gunbroker.com based on price, sub-550 but now that it's in my hands; I'm not sure if I want to shoot it.

The hand guards are flimsy plastic, there is not a proper bolt advancement button like a regular ar-15; taking it apart was not an easy process; spring mechanism that fits into back of bolt block flung out......... all in all; I might be taking a loss on this POS

PS. The fit and finish of this rifle absolutely sucks; I'd never heard of Vulcan/Heese but now I understand a little fact finding would've helped my pocketbook.

Time stamps are our friends.

Isn't funny how threads have a way of reappearing out of the blue

I still haven't changed my mind, STAY AWAY FROM VULCAN!!!

I know Vulcan Arms is known as a less than stellar AR-15 manufacturer

Click to expand...

That's like describing gang rape as 'mildly unpleasant'. Go to a casino to blow your $500. At least there you get cut-rate drinks and food.

BSW

I have an AR with a vulcan fiber/poly lower, its nice and light and worked great for about 4 yrs, all of a sudden the carrier would get jammed halfway to charging, turned out the lower had started to twist, I contacted vulcan and they pretty much blamed the gun, I tought I was getting a great deal when I bought the lower for $70 bucks,now I get to buy another lower (a good one this time) and chalk this up to live & learn.

Vulcan, Hesse, and other names

I think I will just throw some shi$#% on the fire to get some reactions....

1. Vulcan, et al. is like a fish on the dock...It has rotted from the head down. This is the real issue. The leadership is not there, they do not pay their folks well, have a high turnover, do not maintain their tools.....Do I need to go on?

2. I own a V-18 rifle. On the surface it is a fine weapon. Below the surface, it is CRAP!!!!
a. The upper receiver is soft, and I believe that it flexes and twists. This was the bane of the British SA80 / L85.
b. I do not like how the lower was made....too many ways for it to fail.
c. It would have been nice for the piston / gas system to be chromed as well. This is a glaring failure of design, and is indicative of the failure of Vulcan to understand how firearms actually work.

That is the negative side....Now for the positive side:

1. The V-18 is a very innovative design, that incorporates common, off the shelf parts that are both functional and inexpensive. We can all snicker at the "cheap" FN furniture that is used for the fore and butt stocks, but those same items could be replaced with the very fine and functional Israeli parts.

2. I am very impressed with the design of the front trunnion. This is the major stress component that the upper and barrel are connected to. The design is sound, and the execution of attachment is also sound.

3. Vulcan actually has a winner here if they would just do a simple re-design to allow this upper to mate to an AR lower. A normal Upper costs in the $450 to $600 range. Add in a piston option and it gets up there fast!!!! $750-$900 easy. If Vulcan had a brain, they would pull out all of the stops and develop this as a complementary product to the AR platform.

4. When treated as a utility carbine / rifle, the V18 does just fine. 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with a 4x scope (a really cheap NC Star unit). That is better than any Ruger Mini-14 I have ever owned!!!!

Bottom line.....Vulcan has so many good ideas, they actually do a great job at some things. They have branched out to do a general parts site called www.akpartskits.com . I have purchased 8 of their kits, and have no complaints at all. It is my hope that two or three things happen soon at Vulcan:

1. Turn over business control to an accomplished bean counter that understands BALANCE.....
2. Take the time to develop an idea, and then do not cut corners.
3. Finish one concept, then start another.

Last words....

I am an Engineer..A real one with the papers, pedigree, and patents to prove it. I spent the money on the V18 in order to learn the lessons of what was done right, and what was done wrong. Bottom line: Vulcan is a company with a lot of vision.. but little business sense to make that vision a reality. Another sad chapter in the AR-18 / AR-180 story....

Bellson:banghead:

Hello:

Just found this thread on a search.

Quoting Bellson:

"I own a V-18 rifle. On the surface it is a fine weapon. Below the surface, it is CRAP!!!!
a. The upper receiver is soft, and I believe that it flexes and twists. This was the bane of the British SA80 / L85.
b. I do not like how the lower was made....too many ways for it to fail.
c. It would have been nice for the piston / gas system to be chromed as well. This is a glaring failure of design, and is indicative of the failure of Vulcan to understand how firearms actually work."

I am curious how the V-18 differs (apart from the furniture) from the AR-180B. Looking at the V-18 photos, the charging handle appears the same as the original AR-180, so I wonder if the receiver is a copy of that model, as the internals differ between the 180 and 180B, primarily in takedown assy.

For comparison, From the ArmaLite website:


With the best features of the .223 caliber M-15 and the 1st Generation AR-180 rifles, the lower on the new ArmaLite AR-180B is made of a high strength polymer and features the trigger group and magazine well of the AR-15 so that magazines and repair parts are readily available.

The AR-180B upper is formed sheet metal like the 1st Generation AR-180 and features the AR-180 gas system to keep operating gasses outside the receiver. The chrome moly barrel features an integral muzzle brake and our exclusive adjustable front sight base.

The new AR-180B upper and lower receiver groups are interchangeable with those of the 1st Generation AR-180, so earlier models may now be repaired by replacing the upper or lower half.

Model: AR-180B with Black Furniture
Caliber: .223/5.56 mm
Barrel: 19.8" Chrome Moly
Rifling Twist: RH 1:9"
Rear Sight: Rear Sight Adjustable for Windage Only, Small and Large Apertures
Upper Receiver: Formed Sheet Metal
Lower Receiver: High Strength Polymer
Trigger: Standard Trigger
Overall Length: 38"
Weight: 6 lbs
Included with Rifle: 30 Round Magazine, Owner's Manual, One Year Warranty


Bellson mentions that the V-18 "When treated as a utility carbine / rifle, the V18 does just fine. 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with a 4x scope..."

Those results are similar to what I read about the 180B.

I have been considering the 180B, but now I wonder, considering the rather low price, if the V18 might not do the job for me. How many rounds have you put through yours? Have you experience with the 180 and/or the 180B? If so, could you detail the differences between the AR-180B and the V18? I would appreciate your insight.

Thanks...

Bill

[quote="bill powell]I have been considering the 180B, but now I wonder, considering the rather low price, if the V18 might not do the job for me.[/quote] Do yourself a favor and google "Hesse" and "Vulcan" (both the same company) before you spend any money on their products.


One always gets what one pays for.

Yes, I should have mentioned that I am indeed aware of the reputation of Hesse; I'm an FN-FAL fan, and that name was notorious.

However, I do also know folks who have had no problem with their Hesse FAL receivers, so I am willing to keep an open, if skeptical mind on such a new item.

(That's why I'm interested in getting some feedback of someone who actually bought one of these.)

Thanks; I do much appreciate your heads-up...

Bill

i dont like parts guns from 3 different rifles,all meshed together to make one.if hk or fn was making it,maybe i'd change my mind....

Responses

Hi Bill Powell,

Here are the direct answers, and then my impressions vis-a-vis the V18 and the AR-180B...

1. I am curious how the V-18 differs (apart from the furniture) from the AR-180B. Looking at the V-18 photos, the charging handle appears the same as the original AR-180, so I wonder if the receiver is a copy of that model, as the internals differ between the 180 and 180B, primarily in takedown assy.

1. Answer: The lowers are different, but use most of the same parts. Vulcan had their AR15 Carbon Lower modified to work with this upper, and frankly, it scares me. With the upper removed, I can grab the mag well and what would normally be the buffer tube mount and twist the receiver about 10 degrees out of true. Maybe that's ok, and it does not seem to affect function or accuracy. It just bugs the snot out of me. I would have preferred that they use an aluminum lower. Better yet, their V47 lower and release this as a 7.62x39 rifle. On well.

2. I have been considering the 180B, but now I wonder, considering the rather low price, if the V18 might not do the job for me. How many rounds have you put through yours? Have you experience with the 180 and/or the 180B? If so, could you detail the differences between the AR-180B and the V18? I would appreciate your insight.

2. Answer: I have owned an AR-180 (HOWA) since the early 1980's. I have had no real issues with mine, and have modified M-16 mags over the years to feed it with. I purchased two "new" barrels from Numrich in 1993, and have burned through the original and one replacement. I have extensively handled, fondled and fired the AR-180B, and it is superior to even the HOWA AR-180. Better trigger, better fit and finish, and just a better overall execution. The upper on the AR-180B has a much improved fit of components, and the upper is harder than the HOWA is. Armalite did a great job with this rifle, and it's a shame that it doesn't sell better. In the V18, I have at least 4500 rounds down range, and 2000 of those were fired in one day. The rifle does a good job, even with Wolf ammo. The 1.5 MOA group was done on a cold barrel, 5 shots, 100 Meters, using hand loads and Speer projectiles to approximate SS109 ammo.

What I dislike about the V18 is that is just does not fit together very well. It kind of rattles a bit, and that is never a good sign in my opinion. The upper is softer than the Armalite unit, and can be twisted very slightly. I am not body builder. The Armalite unit did not twist at all. Same for the Armalite lower (AR-180B).

Bottom line: As much as I wanted Vulcan to have a winner, they just messed it up again. I am happy with the rifle in general, it shoots straight and it feels "good". I just do not look upon it with confidence that I could stake my life on it. It has not failed at all, a stovepipe or two but I narrowed that down to the magazine I was using. Same results in a Stag Arms AR....

If arenathlete who posted earlier wants to sell his for around $600, I would consider that a good deal. But if you are particular about your rifles, spend the extra on an Armalite AR-180B. I can't do that...I live in the Peoples Republik of California.

God Bless,

Bellson

Bellson, you are a gentleman and a scholar. That was exactly the type of comparison I was looking for. I do believe I will hold out for the 180B, as the weapon could see some rough use.

I'm originally from SoCal (Van Nuys), and feel your pain. After joining the Army back in '77 I have only returned on a few occasions to visit family.

Many Thanks...

Bill