.243 Dies ?

[45Frank]

I thought that she was complaining about recoil to prompt all this. If she's comfortable with full power 100gn loads, by all means go te full power route. The 85gn bullets that you have for reloading will recoil even less than the 100gn when loaded to full power so you should be good to go.

She was several days back, I think she may have still been hurting from the 30-30 she shot(No Padding) and my 22-250(nearly no padding)she shot kicks more then the .243. I think it's all in the pad, it's thick and soft.

 

[kingmt]

The 85gn bullets that you have for reloading will recoil even less than the 100gn when loaded to full power so you should be good to go.

This isn't true. It can be loaded to recoil less but for the most part it is backwards. With two bullets of different length(same design) using the same powder & loaded to the same pressure the shorter one will have more recoil.

 

[helotaxi]

Based on what? Loaded to the same muzzle energy, the lighter bullet will have slightly less recoil. Run the numbers through a recoil calculator.

Shooting my .243s extensively, it is easy to tell the difference between a 55gn Ballistic Tip and a 95gn Ballistic Tip just by recoil, and my 55gn load is over 4k fps.

 

[jjjitters]

Personally ,unless you shoot constantly and a hundred rounds at a time,if the loads are charged even remotely similar other than bullet weight, to "feel" the difference in recoil is doubtful. I shot .243(700 shots in 2 days) and 22-250(another 500 shots) on prarie dogs towns years back with several different bullets and any felt recoil difference just isn't outstanding. I could tell by point of impact at 500-700yrds though. Pistols is more discernable if a person is physically making a point to watch for it, but rifle(especially the bull-barrels) is pretty neutured.

 

[dcktp37]

Not sure why I haven't read this here but from my understanding certain light loads can also have extremely high pressures so the need to be careful is still there even when working with light loads. And assuming that 700 has the same 1:9 1/8 twist and same action as my SPS-V and depending on the range and animal you're shooting you may want to look at a 75gr bullet. I also had issues with higher pressure rounds due to uneven locking lugs. So that's something to look t if you have issues there.


Sent from my fruit-phone 5

 

[hentown]

Does the full length sizer crimp? I got the 3 die collet set and the FL doesn't. 45frank - she probably won't put more than 1K through it in her lifetime so case life isn't really a biggie- FL size.

How in the hell could a sizing die crimp? Ya gonna crimp with no bullet and powder? IF I didn't know any more than that, I wouldn't be giving advice about what brand dies to use!!!

 

[kingmt]

Based on what? Loaded to the same muzzle energy, the lighter bullet will have slightly less recoil. Run the numbers through a recoil calculator.

Shooting my .243s extensively, it is easy to tell the difference between a 55gn Ballistic Tip and a 95gn Ballistic Tip just by recoil, and my 55gn load is over 4k fps.

Yes. If you down load it to the same fps then it should have less recoil. If your using the same powder in both cases loaded at the same pressure then the shorter(lighter) bullet will have more recoil. The longer bullet stays in the barrel longer the drops more before the bullet leaves the barrel. Recoil is from the high pressure gases leaving the barrel not the bullet. The bullet is just the plug holding them in.

If you want to reduce recoil them control it by powder burn rate. Then match bullet size to the speed CD twist rate of the barrel.

 

[helotaxi]

Yes. If you down load it to the same fps then it should have less recoil. If your using the same powder in both cases loaded at the same pressure then the shorter(lighter) bullet will have more recoil. The longer bullet stays in the barrel longer the drops more before the bullet leaves the barrel. Recoil is from the high pressure gases leaving the barrel not the bullet. The bullet is just the plug holding them in.

If you want to reduce recoil them control it by powder burn rate. Then match bullet size to the speed CD twist rate of the barrel.

Where did this drivel come from and why do people insist on repeating it? If it were true, the .17 Remington would be a real bruiser and the .45-70 a complete pussycat.

There is a component of "rocket power" to the recoil of a rifle but it isn't the major component. Basic Newtonian physics tell you that accelerating a bullet, regardless of method has an equal and opposite action from the rifle. The mass of the ejecta determines the muzzle blast component of recoil and is therefore directly related to the weight of the powder charge. The recoil from the acceleration of the bullet is also directly proportional to the weight of the bullet. Run a recoil calculator varying the charge weight and notice how little the recoil of a .308 class cartridge varies with charge weight. Then vary the bullet weight. Notice that no recoil calculator asks what the length of the bullet is (because bullet length doesn't matter in the slightest, even in your attempt at describing what it means above) or the pressure of the cartridge because none of that matters. All that matters is the acceleration of the bullet and the combustion products of the powder from rest to whatever the muzzle velocity and ejecta velocity happen to be.

The other flaw in your logic is assuming that the same powder is going to be optimal with bullets of different weights. Depending on the cartridge and the bullets in question, it might well be impossible to load two different weight (weight, not length is what matters here) bullets to the same pressure. The lighter bullet would be incapable of maintaining pressure well enough to reach peak pressure with the slower burning powder required for the heavier bullet. Likewise the heavy bullet would only permit a very light charge of the powder suitable for the light bullet without vastly exceeding peak pressure. The significantly lighter charge would be unable to produce enough gas volume to maintain any kind of pressure and velocity would be greatly reduced. As a result to load to similar pressure curves you use powders suitable for the particular bullets being used. What you're describing with the pressure dropping on the heavier bullet is the definition of a reduced load. The heavy bullet can be loaded hotter with a slower powder.

In my .243 I typically use relatively fast powders for the 55gn bullets (3031, Varget, etc.) and really slow powders for the 105gn pills (Win780, H4831 etc.). The pressure curves with the two bullets are very close and they are about the same pressure relative to bullet position in the bore. The heavy bullet has noticeably higher recoil. That's simple physics. I'm accelerating a heavier object at only a slightly slower rate. The MV difference is about 1k fps but the muzzle energy is really close to the same. Running both loads through a ballistics calculator shows that the 105gn load has nearly 50% more recoil.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp Play around and see what actually matters. Educate yourself rather than passing on some myth that fails the test of basic logic and argues against basic physics.

 

[kingmt]

You said a lot to say nothing. As you said before you used a slower powder for the heave bullet. With slower powder(keep in reason not 50bmg) the pressure will be building over a longer period so the pressure will be higher when the bullet gets to the end of the barrel. If you want to apply Newton's law to the bullet it is pulling the barrel forward because of friction not kicking off the end of the barrel. Again don't take my word for it use a cleaning rod to pull a patch from the chamber to the muzzle & see which way the gun moves.

It is the burn rate of the powder. A longer bullet is usually heavier & will cause the same powder at the same charge tip burn more complete. There for the shorter/lighter bullet allows more recoil.

I have worked with controlling recoil, bullet velocity, explanation, & stability for a while. You can't get my loads from a manual. There is some math involved that gets tested of course.

 

[popper]

hentown - correct, I meant to say the Lee 3 die set has NO crimp die. I you work at it, the NS die will crimp. Sometimes my brain and fingers don't work.

 

[helotaxi]

You said a lot to say nothing. As you said before you used a slower powder for the heave bullet. With slower powder(keep in reason not 50bmg) the pressure will be building over a longer period so the pressure will be higher when the bullet gets to the end of the barrel. If you want to apply Newton's law to the bullet it is pulling the barrel forward because of friction not kicking off the end of the barrel.

Wrong.

Again don't take my word for it use a cleaning rod to pull a patch from the chamber to the muzzle & see which way the gun moves.

Wrong. By pulling a patch through the barrel, you're applying an outside force to the rifle. Not even talking about the same thing.

It is the burn rate of the powder. A longer bullet is usually heavier & will cause the same powder at the same charge tip burn more complete. There for the shorter/lighter bullet allows more recoil.

What? That makes no sense. Probably because it has no facts, science, reason, etc backing it up.

I have worked with controlling recoil, bullet velocity, explanation, & stability for a while. You can't get my loads from a manual. There is some math involved that gets tested of course.

Well that clearly makes you the expert doesn't it?

You really just don't get it do you? If you think that you know more than all the ballisticians that do this stuff for a living, I'm done wasting my time.

 

[jjjitters]

I have a question for either, not agreeing/disagreeing with anything, just a question.
When using certain powders, like N320, N340,N350,Silhuette(more noticable), how is the felt recoil conciderably less than other powders of comparable burn rates ,like Power Pistol,HS6,Longshot (few other I can't think of right now) even when loaded to the same general velocity/pressures and with the same bullet?

 

[helotaxi]

Different powders, even those right next to each other on the burn rate chart, will exhibit different actual burn rates under actual use. Because of that the pressure curve looks different while the bullet is in the barrel. The pressure curve determines the bullet rate of acceleration and the rate of acceleration goes both ways. If the pressure comes up quicker, the recoil comes on quicker and feels sharper. The total recoil energy is going to be almost exactly the same if the bullet is the same weight, the powder charge is almost the same weight and the muzzle velocity is the same.

With a handgun, the charge weight is very small compared to the bullet weight and the recoil from the powder clearing the muzzle is a very tiny part of the recoil. The recoil comes from accelerating the bullet.

Some things to think about: If a lighter bullet made for more recoil, a .243 should recoil more than a .308. The pressures are the same; the charge weights the same; only the bullet weights are different.

If the friction of the bullet moving down the bore was equal to the force pushing it out, it wouldn't move and would get stuck in the bore.

The expanding gases from the powder charge burning push with the same force on the rifle as they do on the bullet. As soon as the bullet begins to move, it is independent of the rifle for the purposes of determining action and reaction.

A projectile pushed from a "gun" purely by spring power exhibits recoil despite the complete lack of high pressure gases.