38 spl +p soft lead bullets for self defense

[Cop Bob]

There was an old FBI load that was made by several manufacturers, one being Federal, another Winchester, and Smith & Wesson marketed it as well, I still have a few boxes of all of them,,, The S&W was a Nyclad plated bullet, All were made with VERY soft lead, and a huge hollow point punched into them.. They were very good rounds, opened very well and were good accurate rounds. I know we shot some WW off a machine rest and they printed very well, as good as some match HB Wadcutters. Not much recoil at all, muzzle blast was nominal...

I wish it was still available... Maybe not the greatest ammo ever made, but some pretty good stuff... But then again, greatness is subjective..

 

[Creature]

I carry Buffalo Bores 158 grain LSWCHP +P load

That's what I carry.

As do I.

 

[Remllez]

I use a variation of the jacketed round...semi jacketed hollow point standard pressure at around 800 fps. Mag-Tech catalog number 38-E 158 grain. Unscientific test shows modest expansion in water jugs at 10 feet out of my J-Frame.

They are nothing fancy to be sure, but affordable so I practice with them and use them for self defense. I feel they are a compromise between a full jacket and a full lead slug.
I hand loaded full wadcutters and carried them for many years and never felt underpowered but my equipment has long since migrated to one of my sons houses.

.38 specials at self defense ranges have ended many altercations in their history and were carried by PD and FBI for many years. It's hard to argue they are a marginal cartridge when they were carried and used by those departments.

I agree with those about shot placement instead of relying on marginal hits with whatever $2.00 a round wonder pill is en vogue at the time. Placement is more likely to end an altercation there's just no denying it.

 

[doc540]

Currently we have the option of combining shot placement with improved bullet technology.

win/win

 

[wlewisiii]

Another vote for the Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP +P. My carry is a 4" Model 64.

 

[camar]

I use 173gr. LSWC in my loads for .38 Spl., .38 Spl. +P and .357 mag. I look the size of the meplate for my stopping power.

 

[.45FMJoe]

Hornaday Critical Defense has suck engineered right into it, they purposefully try to get less penetration out of the bullet.

Penetration to disrupt the central nervous system or to cause enough tissue damage to facilitate rapid blood loss is the only thing that reliably stops an attacker. To intentionally try to get less penetration is stupid.

 

[.45FMJoe]

Well there was about 100 years of data that said a 158gr .38 slug kills bad guys dead. I tend to agree with the old guy, they work fine.

Much more important than which bullet is placement of course. Also, penetration though barriers, arms, etc might be better with lead slugs or FMJ than with HP's. The .38 does not have a reputation of overpenetrating even with FMJ, unlike the more powerful rounds.

HP's are important to avoid overpenetration with 9mm, .357's, .40, all should be using HP's to reduce overpenetration. I know this forum thinks man-stopping is the reason for HP's wide use in law enforcement, but I think differently, I think it's the threat of lawsuits from bystanders that drives HP adoption. I also think gelatin is a very even and repeatable was to rank bullet capabilities, but a block of totally uniform ballistic gelatin is a damn sight different than any body.

No, Platt and Matix murdered and maimed multiple FBI agents during the infamous Miami Shootout because LSWCHP didn't work. Matix was struck in the head and neck with two rounds of the "FBI Load" +P issued ammuntion and was able to eventually get back into the fight.

I just figured I would point that out.

In my snub nosed .38s I carry Speer Gold Dot 135 gr hollow points that were designed for 2" barrels. Doc Roberts says they perform beautifully in testing.

Oh, and I forgot to add. Your assumption is completely wrong. We are issued ammunition that expands to create enough tissue damage to facilitate the rapid incapacitation of an assailant. PERIOD. We're responsible for every round fired. The ones that miss are as much of a liability as ones that pass through a person.

 

[HammerheadSSN663]

I keep hearing all this talk about 'threat of lawsuits' due to over penetration. Frankly, I don't give a rip about any impending lawsuits or shooting an innocent bystander when MY life, and/or my children's father's life is on the line. I'm using whatever I happen to prefer in a defensive round. The overpenetration lawsuit thing seems to always assume one going to get a center mass shot every time. Really? So why aren't you worried about that semi-wad cutter or HP going through that bicep or grazing that thigh and hitting somebody? Why are those same 'over penetration' posters also the same one consumed with the latest and greatest manstopper on the market? How can such great manstoppers be gauranteed that they won't over penetrate or deliver a glancing blow and go on to injure a bystander? That's right, because we must master 'controlled shooting'. Like,..... at the range? Give me a break. Only the most seasoned and disciplined with perhaps decades of experience can handle a real firefight situation which does NOT apply to 99.99% of gun owners (including military and police). So what am i supposed to do? Call timeout and ask everyone to stand back in case they get accidently hit? If anyone is that worried or has time to sit and think about a lawsuit from hitting a bystander in a TOTALLY chaotic situation, one shouldn't be carrying in the first place. It not my fault, its the criminal's and he/she should be held responsible for the situstion - NOT ME! And don't chime in about why the police went from .308 to .223 - we know that reason a million times already (controlled shots).

Real world situations do not match firefights dreamed up behind a keyboard.

For me, I'm packing the most destructive defensive round I can carry (Ranger Ts or HST). If a lawsuit comes, I accept that for defending MY life, MY family's life - its the cost of the situation.

Until someone can guarantee that a HP is not going to overpenetrate and you can gaurantee a center mass hit everytime, its just words to make that person feel somehow superior to the rest of us dolts.

 

[MikeNice]

No, Platt and Matix murdered and maimed multiple FBI agents during the infamous Miami Shootout because LSWCHP didn't work. Matix was struck in the head and neck with two rounds of the "FBI Load" +P issued ammuntion and was able to eventually get back into the fight.

There have been several "studies" of the shootout. According to Dr. Anderson's reporting on Matix's first head wound.

The bullet hit Matix just forward of his right ear, below the temple, shattered the cheek bone, hit and fractured the base of the cranium, and entered the right sinus cavity under the eye. This hit bruised the brain (but did not penetrate the cranium or brain)... it most probably knocked Matix instantly unconscious.

That would be more than enough in a self defense shooting. The shot would have been non fatal even if it hadn't richocheted.

The second shot was also a shot that would not have been fatal if it followed a staight trajectory. What happened was much better for the agents.

The bullet entered the right side of his neck after he slumped unconscious momentarily forward against the driver’s side door. It penetrated his neck at a downward angle and severed the blood vessels behind the collar bone, ricocheted off the first rib near the spine and came to rest in the chest cavity. It bruised but did not penetrate the right lung. This wound interrupted the blood supply to his right arm and might have also disrupted the brachial plexus to cause dysfunction of the nerves that supply the arm. Dr. Anderson speculates that Matix’s right arm was probably paralyzed by this injury, either immediately by disruption of the nerves or eventually by total loss of blood circulation to the arm. Dr. Anderson feels this wound would have ultimately been fatal, due to the severed blood vessels. Bleeding from this injury during the next 2-3 minutes caused almost a liter of blood to accumulate in the chest cavity. However, for the next minute, it is believed that Matix slumped over onto his back and lay unconscious on the front seat of the Monte Carlo.

Matix never fired another shot during the event. Even after he woke up he was unable to continue fighting. He crawled in to one of the cop's car with Platt hoping to get away. He was completely incapable of fighting any more.

That is all that is required in any defensive shooting. If Platt was removed from the scenario it would have ended right then.

The third shot that hit Matix fragmented on the pillar of the car.

The projectile fragmented in two; the largest embedded in the bone beside the nose, a smaller fragment penetrating the left sinus cavity. According to Dr. Anderson, this wound was not significant, and probably was inflicted as Matix was looking at the approaching Mireles. The size and weight of the two fragments suggests the bullet probably hit the driver’s side window frame before it hit Matix.

The fourth shot that his Matix definitely took him completely out of the fight.

The bullet hit Matix’s face just outside the lower right edge of the right eye socket, at about seven o-clock. The bullet traveled downward through the facial bones, through the right side of the lower jaw, into the neck, and entered the spinal column between cervical vertebra number 7 (C7) and thoracic vertebra number 1 (T1) where it severed the spinal cord at the base of T1.

The "FBI Load" held it's own that day. When it struck true it did exactly what it was supposed to. It caused serious wounds that kept one man completely out of the fight. It was a shot with the "FBI load" that finally ended the fight for Platt. It hit his spine and bruised it causing paralysis.

There were a lot of failures that day. The .38spl+p load was not one of the failures.

All of the quotes regarding Anderson's work come from Firearms Tactical Institute.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

 

[easyg]

Penetration to disrupt the central nervous system or to cause enough tissue damage to facilitate rapid blood loss is the only thing that reliably stops an attacker. To intentionally try to get less penetration is stupid.

Not true.

Yes, we want enough penetration to reach vital organs, but over-penetration (penetration well beyond those vital organs and out the back of the target) serves no purpose whatsoever except to threaten those who are not the intended target.


If penetration were all that matters then neither hollow-points nor soft-lead tips would be desired.
Full metal jacket penetrates plenty.
Too much in fact.
And despite the penetrating ability of FMJ rounds, they're typically less effective at quickly stopping humans than the less penetrating hollow-point rounds.