.44 Mountain Gun and bears

[AZ Heat]

I know this subject has been discussed in general terms, but I have a very specific question. I am going to be spending some time in an area with many black bears. I have a .44 mag Mountain Gun with a 4" tapered barrel. If I load it with .44 mags, is this sufficient defense? Also, would .44 special be sufficient? What loads, etc would you all recommend?

Also, in dealing with black bears, would a .45 from a 3" 1911 be a bad idea? I'm asking because this is my normal CCW weapon.

Thanks for your help!

And just for kicks, would .44 mags out of this gun do anything for defense against brown bears?

 

[Walosi]

"What to use for bear defense" has been discussed so many times, in so many places, that it is almost a joke any more. I've taken two blacks with a Ruger Blackhawk, with factory 240 gr. .44 mag. Both were instant stops, through the shoulders, from the side. A second shot was necessary for the kills. Ergo, if everything is perfect, the .44 mag. will stop a black bear. The first was a young one, the second was nearly 350 lbs., and to the extent that two bears can constitute any kind of average, I'm happy with the .44 mag up to that point. These were both hunting situations. The bear were not aware of us. One bawled like a hurt calf, and frankly it put me off bear as a game animal. Very few people have had contact with a hungry/pissed/agressive black bear. They don't go down easily. A friend who used to guide carried an 18" 1897 Winchester 12 ga.loaded with slugs. He said the only way to stop one that was attacking was to break a shoulder, back off and shoot again. His brother was a guide for a time in Wyoming, and had experience with their rangy mountain browns. His advice was to carry a .45/70 carbine, practice until you were very fast and proficient with it, and then try to stay the hell out of brownie country.

 

[Jim March]

Your gun can take a black bear. Hornady XTPs are JHPs that don't tend to go as "fat" as most but also penetrate deeper, and seem to have a good rep among those who've actually shot a bear (which doen't include me).

With only a 4" barrel, I'd suspect you'd get better performance out of 240s versus the heavies (300, etc).

 

[Pappy John]

.44 special? Even though I carry it myself from time to time, I wouldn't advise anyone else to do it in serious bear country.
.45 ACP? Too close to .44 special.
.44 mag? Look for a solid bullet in favor of a hollow point. If you're in trouble its apt to be head on trouble...think penetration in favor of expansion.
I've had three close encounters and quite a few more distant sightings while in the woods, but luckily all encounters ended with the bears running off. Not often enough to warrant carrying a long gun all the time, but a Mountain Gun is pretty nice to have with you. Nice power to weight ratio.

 

[PigPen]

I have spent a lot of time in the mountain woods and I have happened upon a substantial number of black bears (No browns and no grizz are known to frequent my neck of the woods). They have all , without exception run for cover at the first sight of me except those around a camp site where food was generally available.

I moved away and let a couple have the available food..................feel free to call me a chicken if you will. These bears let when the food was gone.......wish I could always promise you the same.

Actually, as for the blacks that I have encountered, most of them either tenden to ignore me (and the horse that I rode in on) or ran for cover at my first sight.

If'n I wuz to have to shoot one attacking me, I think I would like to have my .44 Mag 6" barrel revolver at the very least (and would prefer a long gun). I do not put this too far past hungry bears in areas where they are not hunted (Chased/shot at, etc.), when they can smell food on you.

Avoidance measures are standard fare in books on camping and hiking. The bottom line is probably, that you will encounter no problems especially if you follow basic safety measures. OTOH, if you do encounter a persistent bear you will be in serious trouble whatever you are carrying for bear medicine. This is not something you want to happen (and seldom does happen). My advice is avoid a conflict when at all possible.


PigPen

 

[PigPen]

.

 

[AZ Heat]

Thanks!

So according to the replys... I'll take the .44 magnum loaded with something like 240 gr Hornady XTPs and do my best to stay out of trouble.

 

[Jim March]

Yup. That's about it.

MAGNUMS, not Specials. Don't even think about Specials. And 45ACP from a 3" would be if anything even worse than the best specials.

 

[Gordon]

In that gun Hornady XTP 300 grain or Corbon 300 grain Penetrators. Least thats what I carry in mine , haven't thank G-d shot any yet. I did shoot a 280 pound Boar thru the hardest part as a finishing shot and it penetrated (the XTP ) REAL WELL!!!

 

[SteelyDan]

Well, I'll disagree with Jim March here (which probably means I'm wrong) but for ANY kind of bear I want penetration over expansion. Especially if you're talking about a self-defense situation, as opposed to a hunting situation. So, I'd recommend a hard cast lead cartridge. The very best are made by Garrett and Buffalo Bore, and Federal also offers a more easily available 300-grain round in .44 mag. This advice, such as it is, goes double for brown bears.

And yes, a .22 can probably kill a black bear under ideal circumstances, but if you're talking about a self-defense situation, where the bear is attacking you, you want to have the .44 magnum and nothing less. In my opinion.

 

[DBR]

AZ Heat:
Is there a reason why you could not carry a short shotgun with slugs? Maybe an inexpensive double coach gun like a Russian Baikal (sp) or a police trade in 870. If I were carrying a 44Mag handgun for bear defense, I would use the heaviest hardcast flat point lead bullet I could manage. I have never shot a bear but I have shot several feral hogs in the 200# range with 158gr HP 357 Mag. I was amazed how well they absorbed them. And, they expanded perfectly but only penetrated a few inches in muscle. I understand a bear is similar.

 

[AZ Heat]

DBR,
I was just wondering if what I already owned would work. I don't have a shotgun right now and am not in a position to buy one. It's on the top of my list. But I will look in to the hardcast flat point lead bullet suggestion.

Thanks for the insights everyone!

 

[Jim March]

SteelyDan: I could well be wrong.

BUT:

Hardcast is for those situations where we're really underpowered for the target. Wanna hunt boar with a 357? You've GOT to go hardcast, won't get enough punch otherwise.

Unless we're talking about a VERY large specimen of 600+ pounds, I don't see a lot of evidence that 44Mag is underpowered for the target.

Second, the XTP is something of a "compromise" between JHP and hardcast. It has a brass jacket that expands slowly and STOPS expanding at a fairly modest point...and then won't come further unglued, because the brass at the area that's not supposed to expand is fairly thick.

So if it can punch deep enough, and there's a fair amount of evidence saying it can, you might as well get some expansion for the same reason you'd do so when planning defense against humans.

See also:

http://shootersforum.com/printthread.htm?t=7049&pp=40

When you get to GRIZ sizes, it ain't the same thing. Now the 44Mag (or basically any other handgun with the *possible* exception of the S&W500 is underpowered. You need all the punch you can get to have a *prayer* and have to give up expansion.

In picking between the 240 and 300 XTPs, I'm less than certain which is better. The *trend* is that lighter rounds perform better in short barrels...but I'd want to see some chrony data for the 300 in a 4" before picking.

 

[bendable]

a very good friend of mine ( lets call him smokey)
has some problems with people who feel it manditory to carry weapons for use on animals , in to the animals "house"or back yard.

It seems that people who carry guns into the animals front yard have a tendancy to crowd or tease or expedite an "exchange" between, the bears and the "visitors"

while people who do not carry weapons usually don't even come into the yard , let alone right up on the porch.

smokey is the first to agree that the bears and the people coexsist wonderfully
( he and his friends visit the people in camp grounds , often)

Smokey says if your going to visit another, and you'll be carrying weapons,
the bears love it when you bring revolvers.

in closing, be a good neighbor
(its best for all involved)

 

[cigardad]

Be sure and cover the bullets with bacon grease.

When you empty the gun at the bear you can then throw it at him and when he stops to lick the gun, run like hell....

 

[dvnv]

A pretty good post was made by JJHack on 24hour a while back about shooting black bears with handguns. He has witnessed large numbers being shot with various hanguns and loads. His conclusion was that .41 mag and up worked well and he favored JHP over HC. FWIW, dvnv

 

[Gordon]

300 XTP does 1050fps (low 1020 high 1090) in my 4" 1989 Mountain Revolver 200feet above sea level. I cast my own 340grain LBT flat point and I can get almost the same velocity with Lil Gun powder, However the XTP makes a bigger hole(.60"+)18+ inches deep(in Boar gristle) and the hard cast goes sailing thru with a .430 hole. The 240 XTP does a little better than 1200fps in my gun and expnds a lot more, it is superior for deer. Expanding bullets stop quicker, this is not mystery, they just have to pass thru the same vital organ

 

[ChristopherG]

Were I carrying a 629 in the woods, and there were black but not brown bears present, I'd split the difference between the 240 XTP and the 300 hardcast with a 270 Gold Dot JSP in 44 mag. But I carry a mere 357 in the woods (w/ the 170 Gold Dot JSP), so that shows you what kind of lightweight nutcase I am .

 

[SteelyDan]

Well, I'll confess that my mind has opened a bit toward the possibility of using select JHP rounds for black bear defense. Which, I guess, is the point of forums like this. So thanks for the information.

 

[paul105]

Quote from Garrett site "Reviews"

"You've made a believer out of me. Last September I was hunting Alaskan grizzly with some natives when one of them wounded a male that took off in the brush. Four of us went in after him, the other 3 had rifles and due to the circumstances of the moment, I was armed with only a S&W 2.5" 44 Magnum loaded with your rounds. I was the fourth guy back, and you guessed it, he circled back around us and did a full charge from the rear at about 15-feet. I turned and shot, hitting him in the upper shoulder, blowing out his lungs and lodging just under the hide on the far side. It knocked him down, giving me enough time to empty my remaining rounds to keep him down. I know these loads were a real life saver!"

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/reviews1.asp

 

[rolltide]

I have read some of JJHACKS posts on Graybeards. He has shot nearly 100 black bears with a handgun. It used to be his job to take care of problem bears for a big timber company. He has also guided in Alaska and currently guides in Africa. He experimented with different rounds. Most of the bears he shot had one leg in a trap and were really angry (can't much blame them). They were usually pulling at the chain trying to get at Hack. He says that hardcast bullets blow right through the bear with little or no immediate effect on the aggression of the bear. On the contrary, when shot with 44 Mag 240 JHP, the bears almost always fall back on their haunches and start biting at the wound, which gives ample time for followup shots. Either one will stop a bear if you hit the brain (the 240 JHP has plenty of penetration for black bears according to Hack) but he asks how many can brain a charging bear with a handgun. He always carries 240 JHP (recommends XTP) in 44 Mag for black bear. He does not recommend ANY handgun for brown bear protection nor any rifle short of 375 H&H for PROTECTION (i.e. stopping a charge) on brown bears.

 

[Wildalaska]

Im no expert but my Mountain Gun is stoked with 300 grain JSPs by HSM..

Wouldnt put Buffalo Bore or Garrets thru any gun I own, will say no more than that.


WildandforalltherestgetabushwackerAlaska

 

[Harve Curry]

Az Heat,

A likely place for a black bear to bother you is when your sleeping in camp. That is most of the attacks I've read about. I sleep with my Colt SA ,4.75" barrel 44special. Loaded with 5 handloads. I wouldn't like factory loads in 44spl. If your going to be sleeping on the ground or a tent think about keeping the flashlight and revolver the sleeping bag. Last year the guy in Arizona couldn't find his gun while the bear was mauling him through the sleeping bag.

I would not trust myself with a cocked and locked 1911 in the sleeping bag.

I've walked to a treestand in the dark and had one walking to one side of me. Also had them bark and snap at me when in a ground blind watching water.

I killed a 300 pound black bear with a antique 73 Winchester converted to 45lc. The load was 225gr SWC over 7.5gr unique. 8 feet up in a tree and looking down at me. At 50 feet I shot him low in the throat, when he raised his left front leg I shot into the armpit . In a few seconds he fell dead.

 

[Mannlicher]

Back in yesteryear, I took a nice blackie in Baker County Fla. in the Pinhook Swamp area. Two shots from the.44 Mag Flat Top Blackhawk, handloads, I think they were 240 grain Hornady SP over a lot of 2400. That one dropped like a stone.
Now, I carry a .44 Mag Mountain Gun, and load with 270 grain Speer GDSP over H110. This has proven very effective on hogs, and I have no doubt that it would handle any Black Bear.
Since there are no Browns or Grizzly bears in Florida, I can't speak about those.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

I just started hunting black bears here in California, so I asked lots of questions of the outfitters. A couple of the more experienced guides carried 629's, one a 4" Mountain Gun and the other a 6". Both loaded the first chamber up with JHP's, 300 gr Partitions I think, in case they had a spine shot or heart shot, but the rest were hard cast heavies. Their stated reasoning was that, after the first shot, they were shooting to anchor or cripple to keep the bear off the dogs.

They seemed to swear by Garrett's loads, but were too cheap to use them. They handloaded for each other.