.44 vs .454 vs .460 for Black Bear Defense

[Blanckmeister]

.44 Flat Top

I will admit that I have no bear defense experience. I find some of the responses on this thread to be idiotic to downright insulting. For someone to say that all you have to do is avoid the bear is an ass. You already know from experience that if you walk in the wilderness, you are bound to encounter the wild. For someone to say all you need is a 10mm glock, .357 or 1911 is an ass. You might as well take a .22 and hope to shoot the bears eyes out. For someone to say all you need is a gun large enough for yourself is an ass. That person probably packs a .22 in bear country. I have the first revolver ment for bear defense, the 50th annivesary of it at least. The .44 mag Ruger Backhawk. Oh no, now we are going to hear about how a 6.5 in. barrel is too long, single action is too slow to shoot, and it is impossible to reload. Well, I will swear by it. I am unaware of any cowboys complaing about how long their Peacemakers were. As for it being slow, ever heard of Bob Munden? And if you have to reload after 6 shots of .44 mag, you are not defending against a bear. I will impart on you some words of wisdom: The first number of your chosen caliber should be NO LESS than 4. You usually shoot the fastest with what you learned to shoot with. And, if you need more than a .44 mag, you should probabaly be using a rifle. O.K. I'll get to the point. You already know you want a .44 mag and you are right. You are interested in the Blackhawk, well you are right, they are inexpensive AND everlasting beauties. I am also interested in the .460 XVR, but for carry and bear defense, it maybe too heavy. Especially if I owned one because I would have to scope it. But, now I'm daydreaming. Everybody has their own preferences and therefor, their own opinions. Both of yours are correct in my opinion. The .44 mag can also shoot .44 Russian/.44 Special for practice and competition. I would like to cite a story I read a year or so ago: A man was hiking through bear country when he had the 6th sense to turn around. A huge, yet scrawny brown bear was hurling towards him on the trail. The man drew his Ruger Alaskan in .454and shot the bear with 10 feet to spare. The bears momentum carried it past the man about 5 feet where it dropped dead. The man ascertained that the bear was starved and was intent on eating him. True story, with a little Googling, you should find it. The point is that in the moment of truth, the test of man and gun prevailed.

P.S. I agree that a Colt/S&W/Kimber 1911 with a .460 Rowland conversion would be sweet. As far as the 10mm, I am not familiar with the ballistics, but Elmer Kieth said that you want at least a 200 grain projectile going over 1100 fps. However, if 30 nazis were storming my house, I would gladly choose a G20 with 6 extra mags over my .44 flat top. The point to bear defense is a one shot stop, for you only may get one shot off in time(see story above). Ammo for the .44 is easy to find and easy to reload your own(this is where it really shines). All things considered, for bear defense and hunting out to 100 yards, in brush or open field, loaded properly, a .44 mag is never a bad choice.

 

[Blanckmeister]

.44 Flat Top Revival

One for in the city, the other for in the country (Or, one for two legged creatures, the other for four).
P.S. LCP= Little, Crappy Pistol.
But, it fits in my pocket.

 

[BruM]

All the power doesn’t mean much in a crisis unless you get lead on target.

The weapon that you can shoot quickly and accurately, in any direction, several times in a few seconds is probably better than one which is heavy and slow to get on target and difficult to get back on target for the follow up shot.

Folks talk as if their first shot will always be dead on but IMO the surprise of a suddenly charging bear doesn’t bode well for anyone who hasn’t practiced shooting his favorite weapon quickly and in every direction and repeatedly. That guy that turned, drew and downed the charging bear was either very practiced or very lucky. But did he really shoot only once?

Those bears aren’t always going to be following gunfighter rules.

 

[stiletto raggio]

Blanckmeister:

That is a hell of a way to use your first two posts here. First you say that "For someone to say all you need is a 10mm glock, .357 or 1911 is an ass." A very strong opinion. I live in Colorado and can tell you that several friends of mine carry .357s with heavy, hard-cast lead bullets for protection against bears. I prefer the Glock 20. A properly loaded .357 or 10mm will out penetrate a .44 mag with a poorly designed bullet, and penetration is the key to stopping or killing a bear.

I prefer the G20 because it offers firepower for aggressive humans and penetration for aggressive bears. I don't think you will find a handgun that beats the G20 for versatility along those lines.

As for Blackhawks, I love them. I own five in one variation or another, but I will say that the Bisley grip is far better than the traditional "peacemaker" grip for dealing with heavy recoil. Look at the Freedom Arms guns or even Elmer Keith's own Number 13 and you will see that experienced single-action shooters recognize that the old-style grips could use serious improvement. So, if you want a single-action, I would look for a Ruger Bisley, either the Vaquero or Blackhawk. .357, .44 or .45 Colt will all work just fine if properly loaded.

 

[Fishman777]

Elmer Keith said 200 grain at 1100 fps...

That being the case, I'd go with a M&P 40 with double taps.

Double taps has a gas-checked, flat nosed loading that is 200 grain and would make it to around 1080 or so fps in a M&P.

We're talking about *black bears* in the lower 48. Most black bears that you run across will be about the size of a large man. This loading and bullet selection should be adequate. To stop a threat, you need shot placement. In a stressful situation, I'd prefer 16 chances to hit something vital. A .45 acp recently took down an adult grizzly with 9 shots, in Denali National park. I have confidence that I could take down just about any black with that 40 s&w loading. If you can get good hits with a .44 magnum, go for it. I personally would prefer more shots.

Face it: you probably won't need to use the gun, anyways. Black bears occasionally prey on humans. This usually only happens if they are desperate.

 

[Regen]

I have twice now, bumped into bears at very close quarters.

Are you carrying a bear bell? Best defense against running into bears at close quarters is to let them know that you are coming. Black bears will usually get out of the way a long time before you get there.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Another option is the S+W 625 acp and have the cylinder converted to .460 Rowland .44 mag power without the harsh recoil easy to shoot with one hand.
The .460 conversion will fire .45acp,,45 auto rim ,.45 Super....For black bear ( one tryed to enter my home early morning ) and taking the dog out at night I carry in chest hostler.

View attachment 496708

Dang.. I got a 3 inch 625 I could do that to!

Jimmy Clark, right? He does those I think.

Deaf

 

[Old Ranger]

Black Bears aren't all that dangerous to begin with; unless you run across a sow who decides you're a threat to her cubs. I've seen plenty of them in the wild, and never had a single bad encounter.

Black Bears aren't all that hard to kill; but wounding one can be dangerous. I'm aware of one incident where a guy was mauled by one he'd shot with a
.444 then walked up and kicked the'dead' bear. The .444 bullet had fragmented superficially. Bad juju.

When I'm out there, I carry a.45 ACP hot loaded with ball ammo at around 1000fps. If I were in Griz country, I'd have my short 12 guage AND the .454.

 

[Norrick]

Id wager the super redhawk Alaskan in 454 recoils more than the 329pd in 44mag.
I owned the SRH Alaskan and besides wilderness protection, its not good for much else besides getting stared at. It has a very violent snap. Readjusting your grip after each shot is necessary with the hot loads. Its also hard to say which would be better... a 44 coming out of 4 inch barrel or a 454 out of a 2.5 inch barrel. If I had to do it again I'd go 329pd.. at least you can use it for more conventional self defense situations as well as maybe hunting depending on barrel length laws.

And for something you don't plan on using unless of rare circumstances I would always opt for the lighter of the two.

 

[Prosser]

"Well, my question is.. Is having a real big caliber a bad thing? I figure if I am going to shoot a charging bear, the more power I have in my gun, the better. Yes, we do have a bear problem around here and thanks to animal rights activitists, there numbers are becoming too much for certain areas. Since, I like a one gun that can fit all situations, would having a .454 or .460 be a bad idea? I know that carrying a large rifle or shotgun wiht slugs is ideal, but it is neither practical for my lange range hiking, as well as will attract unwanted attention on the crowded trails filled with yuppies, liberals, jerky rangers (not all of them are bad, but some) and other types of anti-gun people."

For your use, there is a HUGE difference between the calibers you mentioned, and the ones designed to be holster rifles: They start at .480, .475 and .500 Linebaugh, along with the .500JRH, .510GNR.
They fit in the same sized revolvers, 3.2 pounds as your .454, but, they are a considerable stepup in bullet weight, penetration, and hole in target.
My hunting friends swear a .475 Linebaugh, with a 375-420 grain cast bullet will go end to end, and exit. Velocity doesn't have to be much more then 1300 fps. They also expand a bit when they hit bear bone.

The secret to these guns is to go for the lower end pressure loads for caliber. They are still, plenty fast, but recoil considerably less.

 

[Buck Snort]

Any of the three will do the job but the last two will kill it deader!

 

[ArmedBear]

I've spoken with exactly one person who used a gun to stop an aggressive Black Bear. He shot a bullet into the dirt, and when the bear heard the report, he turned and ran.

Since, I like a one gun that can fit all situations, would having a .454 or .460 be a bad idea?

Depends. My Mountain Gun weighs almost a pound less than that, and will work fine with my hardcast LSWC handloads, just like it did for Elmer Keith.

Prosser is right: a big, relatively non-expanding, heavy bullet going at a reasonable clip is what makes handguns (and BPC rifles) work well. Forget what you think you know about small, light, fast centerfire rifle projectiles.

 

[sonier]

Wow another bear thread, a 357 magnum with hot loaded lead cast will stop a black bear in its tracks. If you are worried about the monstrous 400 pound bear well guess what I had a hog that weighed over 500 pounds shot and killed him with a 22 LR. I live in MAJOR BLACK BEAR COUNTRY i see them nearly once a week, i have ridden horses up on them, i have stumbled 50 yards from a momma and her cubs, coolest thing ever to see. She chased the cubs in the tree and stood on her hind legs. she took off away from me and the cubs fell out of the tree trying to catch up with her. I know for a fact that a 357 magnum will settle a quick dispute if neccesary. but if your even more scare dgo with kodiaksbeer 12 guage, you dont need a grenade launcher to take down a black bear, im sure a 38 special +p would even do the trick.

 

[Prosser]

For bear DEFENSE, I would pick either a BFR or FA 83 in .475 Linebaugh, .500JRH, .510 GNR,
.500 Linebaugh, or my .500 Max.

Two ways to go, ammo wise. Hard cast have merits, but, I wonder if some of the really heavy HP's or soft points might be the way to go. If people say shotguns are such a great anti-bear weapon, what's wrong with a 2 bore sized hole?

I got this size with a 275 Grain .475 Linebaugh, at about 1500 fps.



Penetration would not be deep, but, it would sure get the bears attention.

I wonder if some of the really heavy hollow points, 400 grains or more, might give you expansion, plus penetration?

Here's the factory .475 Hornady HP, shot into water:


1300 fps, 1350 fps out of my 7.5" FA 83.

Hawk has some intresting bullet choices. Thick jacketed, 400 grain SP's.

My pick might be the 450 grain HP, in .510 Linebaugh, or use some of the .510 rifle bullets.
Just thinking a bit...

 

[Prosser]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_158_26/ai_86704793/

John Taffin wrote the above. Pretty good stuff.

 

[Old Ranger]

As I said before, I carry a 1911A1 and hot, ball ammo in the woods. I can get all the second shots I want. The Crimson Trace grip is good at close range, if it isn't in real bright sunlight. The iron sight is dayglo target. Second, third, fourth whatever.

My .454 is a Ruger Redhawk cut down to 5 inches with Magna-port. It is STILL a beast with heavy cast bullets. Close quarters follow up on target shots? Probably not. The .45? Absolutely.

Again, I too have seen numerous Black Bears in the wild, and never had a bad encounter. And like someone else said too - - - they aren't hard to kill.

I remember that story about the guy and the Griz up in Alaska. He was fishing; and shot it with his Ruger Alaskan. He said he just had time to shoot, and at first didn't know how many times. He fell backwards and the bear slid past him. I think it was posted on here somewhere.

I know there are a few things in the deep woods you should beware of - - - use common sense. If you spend all your time worried about being attacked by something you'll miss all the wonder and beauty. Personally, I think the big cats are more dangerous than Black Bears. Alaskan Brown, Kodiak, Polar - - - now that's another story.

 

[22-rimfire]

Blanckmeister, welcome to the forum.

I have had bear encounters but none have been trying to kill me. I would feel better with my 41 mag Mountain Gun with 250 gr solids for moral support. Moral support is mostly what you get when you carry a handgun for black bear protection. Bear encounters happen so fast that I honestly doubt I would even have time to draw if they are under 25 yds and coming at me with head down. It's good to have moral support. Kind of like having a SAK and matches with you when you hike.

 

[Prosser]

Of the calibers mentioned, I'd use the .44 magnum because it's not loaded to stupid pressure like the .454 and .460.

I find most people can't shoot .454 or .460, unless the guns grips are custom fitted to their hands, and, if they aren't, they are lucky to hit a barn at 25 yards, much less the skull of a charging bear.

There is very little performance gain in handguns when going over 40k pressure. Better to increase bullet weight, and stay at 40k or lower. The .454 is well known for vicious recoil, due to the absurd pressure it's loaded to.

 

[Karl Hungus]

I've got a Dan Wesson .44 mag that I leave at home.

I see dozens of bears annually while walking out in the woods unarmed all by myself. Sometimes even sows with cubs. Sometimes, if I see them first and they're upwind, I even try to stalk a bit closer because I think they're interesting critters. I am also dead sure that I've been within 20 feet of bears very often without even realising it. When I'm alone, unarmed in the woods I never think "OMG!!! The animals are all out to get me!!". In fact, the most threatening situations I've found myself in have all involved humans. I've been intimidated by bears a few times, but I knew what they were up to - they want to get into a physical confrontation about as much as you do.

My honest advice is to let go of the bearanoia and enjoy the woods.

 

[amd6547]

Exactly.
I carried a 6" 44mag on a black bear country backpack trip exactly once...based upon advice from people who didnt know what they were talking about, and had never carried a heavy revolver on a multi-day trip while carrying a 40lb pack...like much of the advice you are getting here.
Since that trip, I found that two legged predators are the main concern, and I arm accordingly.
A decent 357mag revolver can do it all. Look for a well used finish worn blue or a scratched up stainless model. A Ruger Security Six or a S&W Model 19. A $700+ revolver for the trail? Maybe you, not me.
In fact, after years of backpacking with various handguns from the 44mag down to a 22lr, I have settled upon a cheap Tokarev pistol. It is light, compact, accurate and reliable. It will handle the main two legged threat out to 100yds, and if something happens to it on the trail, I aint out much.
I would seriously reconsider bear spray. Just tonight, I saw an interview with Jack Hanna. He was hiking a mountan path in Glacier National park when a Grizz came down the trail towards him...two blasts of pepper and the bear ran the other way. Stuff is useful for humans too.
I go into the woods to enjoy the wild things, not fear them.
I also keep as one of my main goals to lighten the weight I carry.

 

[CraigC]

My honest advice is to let go of the bearanoia and enjoy the woods.

Agreed but just like concealed carry, it's best to have a sixgun on your hip and not need it than need it and not have it. It's cheap, handy, powerful, packable insurance.

I carried a 6" 44mag on a black bear country backpack trip exactly once...based upon advice from people who didnt know what they were talking about, and had never carried a heavy revolver on a multi-day trip while carrying a 40lb pack...like much of the advice you are getting here.
Since that trip, I found that two legged prdators are the main concern, and I arm accordingly.

I really have to question why so many have such an issue with packing a 6" N-frame on their hip. I reckon perception is everything.

 

[amd6547]

I wouldnt have an issue packing an N frame...If I needed it. I didnt. It, and the 18rds I carried (12 heavy solid bear loads and 6 lighter JHP's) were a major lump of weight for me to carry on what was a rough country trip with lots of vertical miles in 90+ degees heat and high humidity.
...And it wasn't really an N frame. Following my dictum to use a relatively cheap firearm for trail use, my 6" 44mag on that trip was an Astra Spanish copy of an N frame S&W.
If I did want to carry something besides the 357mag I own now, I would look for a very beat up Blackhawk 45colt with a 4 5/8" barrel.

 

[higene]

Bear Guns

The owner of Kiona Plot Hounds of Benton city Washington did a lot of bear hunting back when hound hunting was legal here took care of business when his hounds got in trouble. His gun - 4" 357 and 158 JSP.

I have owned 6 model 29s and am waiting for the big brown truck to bring my 454. My pick for hiking would be a 4 - 5 inch revolver - 44 or 45. If the caliber were 44 Special or 45 Colt, I would load 11 or 12 grains of Unique behind a 240 or 250 grain bullet.

 

[22-rimfire]

Craig C said....I really have to question why so many have such an issue with packing a 6" N-frame on their hip. I reckon perception is everything.

I carry a Colt Python for a while and found it to me a bit heavy for belt carry for extended periods. The barrel length may make unholstering a 6" revolver a bit slower, but I think you could carry the 6" without much discomfort.

I was younger (and dumber), and I have since been using belts designed for carrying a gun with much better success from a comfort perspective. The 6" shouldn't be that big of a deal. Not that much difference in weight from a 4". I would just carry my 4" Mountain Gun and not worry about it these days. It is a heavier gun.