5.56 AR15 "Optics" question

[T2K]

My first post. I've learned a lot on this topic reading older ones here, very informative. So, I hope this post is fine tuned enough and sorry for the length.

Here's the deal: when I was in the National Guard in SC in the 90's I was issued the M16A2. I liked shooting it and qualified as a sharpshooter, but I HATED cleaning it.

Now, I'm getting an LWRC M6 which supposedly is a lot easier in terms of maintenance because it has a piston system instead of the direct gas thing.

Since I'm dropping some $ on that, I thought I should get one of these modern scope or red dot things. I've never used anything other than iron sights before, FYI.

So, it looks like the three main choices are:

-Aimpoint H1, a compact little red dot thing
-EOTech, a little window shaped red dot scope
-ACOG, an optical magnigication scope with a reticle and some kind of fiber optic system

This rifle will probably be used for shooting cans and targets at the range. My home and personal self-defense weapon is a pistol. But of course, who knows what might happen and I would like this rifle to be real world useful too.

So, here are my specific questions and any help would be greatly appreciated:

1. The Aimpoint H1 - is it good enough for precise (tin can size) shots out to 100m? I gather that the dot can be big enough to cover the whole target depending on target size and distance? Also, I assume it uses a battery?

2. The EOTech - I assume it also uses a battery? Plus, it looks like it's open enough that the dot could be washed out and not visible in bright sunlight?

3. The ACOG - I notice some ACOG's have a neon bright colored fiber optic on top (presumably to gather light) and some don't. Is there a difference?

4. The LWRC M6 has a normal fixed front sight post and a Daniel Defense rear sight mounted on the rail. Is there any point to keeping the rear sight mounted? It wouldn't be usable with any of the above, would it?

Like I said, thanks for any help on this stuff.

 

[NMGonzo]

Are you going to have time to aim a rifle inside the house?

 

[T2K]

NMGonzo - Like I said, this is not a home or personal defense weapon. It's for range use (usually 100m, no more than 300m).

 

[cbrgator]

1. The dot will be around 4" in diameter at 100' and yes it uses a battery. The battery lasts tens of thousands of hours. The Aimpoint red dots are probably the most common type of sight attached to AR's.

2. EOTech also uses a battery. You should be fine in sunlight. Cheapest option, but doesn't mean lower quality.

3. The fiber optic ACOG's are dual illuminated also using tritium that glows. ACOG's are much more expensive than the other 2 options. If you are shooting out past 100m you may want to go this route for the magnification. (The other 2 make separate 3x magnifiers that can be used in conjunction with the optic, if you so choose).

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

I have an AR that I just use for the range and fun, I went with the EOTech. Its PLENTY bright during the day. You can adjust the brightness for the application, and what you want it to look like. I also like mine because I can turn it off, flip up the iron sights, and have fun that way without removing the EOTech.

I used both EOTech and Aimpoint before buying and id deffinately go with EOTech over the Aimpoint.

But like everything else, its up to what you like...

 

[C-grunt]

All three are good options. The more expensive Aimpoints have a smaller dot for more precise aiming. Would cover about 2 inches at 100 yards. The EOTech's dot will cover about 1 inch at 100 yards.

I personally am a huge fan of the ACOG. I used one in the Army and have one on my dept duty rifle. Check around used as I got mine used for 600 instead of the usual 950. Go to a store that has all three and check them out.

Some stores around here even have examples mounted on blue dummy guns so you can try it out without muzzling people.

 

[MarineOne]

Another +1 for the ACOG simply based on distance use. You could get the magnifiers for the EOTech and Aimpoint but price-wise you'd be right there at the bottom range for an ACOG.

 

[steven58]

While the Aimpoint H-1 is officially a 4 moa dot, in actuality it works out to be a 3 moa dot. This is due to the short size of the tube. Therefore, at 100 yds it will cover only a 3" circle so yes you can shoot tin cans very effectively. The trick is to keep the dot brightness turned down to a minimal level so the dot appears sharper. There are 2 moa dot Aimpoints as well if you want a smaller dot. I can't tell the difference between the 2 and 3 when at the range.

There are many ACOGS with a great variety of reticule types and magnification levels available. All are capable of shooting a tin can sized target at 100 yds. Some have a fiber optic illumination system that makes them pretty fast in close and help with moving / fleeting targets.

The big difference between unmagnified red dot sights and ACOGs is that the red dot is faster up close and still accurate enough to hit targets out to about 300 yds. Past that point the ACOGs with magnification and a bullet drop compensating ("BDC") reticule allow you to shoot effectively at threat sized targets out to about 600 yds.

Here's my 16" Ar style rifle set up with an Aimpoint T-1. It holds a 10 shot 1.25 inch group at 100 yds benched with good ammo and will keep the rounds on a 10" paper plate out to 300.

Yes, it uses batteries and that was big leap of faith on my part. However, Aimpoints have earned a well deserved reputation for toughness and reliability. According to the manual, the battery is good for 5 years if left on continuously on setting 8. Additionally, as in the second picture, you can set up the pistol grip to carry 4 extra batteries. This gives you the ability to have a back up battery if the one in the sight fails due to defect. and you have 25 years of battery life on tap.

Aimpoint, Trijicon, and EOTech are premium optics that are expensive and worth every penny! While I am partial to the first 2, there are many people who like the EOTech brand. Just make sure you shop wisely. There are many counterfeits of these sights being sold on Ebay.

I recommend going to sites like ar15.com and m4carbine.net where they have stickys on how to recognize fakes, different reticules and where to get the best deals.

 

[T2K]

Thanks, lots of good info here.

The Trijicon site has several dozen different ACOG's. The "TA01 NSN" (4x with an iron site on top) is listed as most popular. I guess that would be the one to go for if I got an ACOG?

My present range only has 100 yards max distance, and I doubt I would have anywhere to shoot that is more than 300. So, a red dot seems like it might be the best all around solution. With the Aimpoint T1 or H1, is the front site post visible when you look through it? I guess that is what I see referred to as "co-witness"?

 

[steven58]

Seems THR won't let me upload the same picture twice They are in this thread on page 2 http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=499701

 

[Uncle Mike]

Side note....if you are considering an " EOTech" type sight, do not need the sledge hammer durability of an EOTech 'brand' reflex sight, take a look at the Bushnell brand "Holosight".

It is a close copy of the EOTech sight, the Holosight was actually the inspiration for the EOTech, and has been around for years.

The Holosight offers the same reticle as does the basic EOTech, the switches on the Holosight are not bomb proof as on the EOT's however I have used one of these sights for at least 7 years on a hard pounding shotgun with no failures.

The Holosight also does not have the protective 'hood' covering the unit, but like I say, if your not jumping out of the back of a APC or kicking down doors, this sight is tough enough! They cost about a third of the price of an EOTech, retail.

Same brightness adjustments as far as intensity, same MOA dot size, same battery as the basic EOT, a tad bit smaller viewing window, aluminum construction and p-rail mounting. Bushnell Holosight

 

[steven58]

Yes, if you are shooting to only 300 yds with a basic AR rifle (not some kind of precision / varmint rig) an Aimpoint will work just fine.

The T-1 costs about $ 100 more than the H-1. The only advantage to the T-1 is it has night vision compatible settings. This allows it to be used with night vision devices without damaging the screen of the night vision. So, unless you are going to use NVD, get the H-1 it's the same sight without the NVD capability.

Keep in mind that you can get an Aimpoint H-1 for well under $ 500. ACOGS start around $700 ish.
and go way up! The TA01 NSN is popular because it is the "official" US military sight. I have a TA33R8 that works great and is one of the (relatively) bargain priced ACOG scopes.

Remember, AR flat top rifles are modular. You can put the red dot in a quick detach mount and have a precision scope in a quick detach mount as well. Any time you want to shoot precision or long range you just quick change optics in about 60 seconds and you are GTG. Modern QD mounts like LaRue won't loose zero.

 

[T2K]

Yes, I was wondering where the pictures you mentioned were Steven58. Glad I got to see them. That looks about what I'm looking to do I guess. But Uncle Mike I'll check out the others as well.

Steven - I see you've got what looks like a Daniel Defense rear sight on it. Can you aim through the iron sights through the bottom part of the Aimpoint? I'm trying to figure out how the iron sights work with all these scopes.

 

[steven58]

Yes, the front sight is clearly visible through an Aimpoint, and any other red dot sight, as there is no magnification.

Co-witness means where dot appears in relation to the iron sights. There are 2 kinds.

Absolute co-witness: when you look through the dot sight the dot appears to float just over the tip of your front iron sight and this is centered in your rear iron sight. The advantage is this set up just superimposes a red dot on your normal iron sight picture.

1/3 co-witness: The dot sight is mounted a hair higher so your irons sit in the lower 1/3 field of view. The advantage is you have a better field of view through the dot sight. To use the irons (if the dot fails) just push your cheek weld down a bit and pick up the irons.

which one you choose, and which type of rear sight (folding or fixed) is a personal choice.

If you are using a magnifying optic you need to use a folding rear sight.

 

[steven58]

Yes, it's a DD rear sight. I chose it because it is a simple, light and very rugged sight. Here's how this set up works:
The T-1, like most dot sights has no magnification. When you look through it, with both eyes open, you focus on the target and the dot seems to be out there on the target (like it was a laser). You ignore the irons as a little blur in the lower field of view.

If your red dot fails (unlikely) you just drop your head a hair and pick up your irons and use as if the dot sight was not there.

You can also use the iron sights to check the zero of the dot sight. With your irons zeroed and your red dot zeroed at the same range, if you scrunch down and pick up a proper iron sight picture the dot will be right on the tip of the front post.

This all works because the dot sight has no parallax issues as it has no magnification.

ACOGs are all magnifying optics so you can't use the irons through them because your front sight will be a ghost blur. With ACOG or any scope you use a folding rear sight and a quick detach mount. If your scope fails you take it off, fold up your rear iron and drive on.

 

[T2K]

OK, thanks now I'm getting the idea of how this works.

If I want an Aimpoint H1 with a 1/3 co-witness, I guess the type (height off the rail) of the mount is the differentiating factor?

 

[steven58]

Yes, the mount for the dot sight is the critical factor. Many manufacturers have mounts that will give you whichever height you want and will identify them as such (ie: absolute co witness mount vs. 1/3 co witness mount). Just be sure to order the right one. If in doubt contact the manufacturer.

When I ordered mine from AIM surplus, the vendor had it incorrectly described as absolute co-witness (which I didn't want). A quick check with DD revealed that they had not begun production of the absolute co witness mount so the one on AIM had to be the lower 1/3 type I wanted.

With a folding rear sight its less of an issue because the sight stays folded out of the way when not in use.

Fixed = simpler less parts to go wrong but only good with a dot sight.
Folding= you can use a magnifying scope if you want as well as a dot sight.

 

[winknplink]

Side note....if you are considering an " EOTech" type sight, do not need the sledge hammer durability of an EOTech 'brand' reflex sight, take a look at the Bushnell brand "Holosight".

Might as well. Eotech got all their holosight tech from Bushnell....Shh, don't tell the fanboys.

 

[Robert]

I would go with the ACOG. Low enough power to be usable at close-ish range and enough magnification to reach out to 400m with ease. The dual illumination models can suffer from "bloom" from the fiber optic line in bright day light. A friend of mine runs a little zipper device on his to adjust the brightness and control the bloom from the fiber optic. I have also seen guys use electrical tape to mask off part of the fiber optic. I have never been much of a red dot fan, and by the time you buy the EOTech or Aim Point AND the 3x magnifier you could have bought an ACOG. Plus they are built like a tank so you can use it as a weapon should the need arise...

 

[T2K]

I like to get things done fast, so I just bought an Aimpoint Micro H-1 with a LaRue mount for a 1/3 cowitness.

I am based overseas and only get home to SC (and my gun collection) a couple times per year. So, not much time to shop around and I can usually only work in 1 range trip. The new rifle and optic will be waiting for me soon when I'm home on vacation. The only range I'll realistically be able to go to (Twin Ponds Range in the Francis Marion National Forest) is 100 yards, so an ACOG magnification scope would probably be wasted.

I'll try to get one in the future when I have a longer range to shoot at.

Thanks all for the advice and info, it helped a lot.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

1. The Aimpoint H1 - is it good enough for precise (tin can size) shots out to 100m? I gather that the dot can be big enough to cover the whole target depending on target size and distance? Also, I assume it uses a battery?

The dot size is officially 4 MOA; but as others mentioned, you can make the dot dimmer so that it appears smaller in comparison to the target. The H1/T1 has a 50,000 hour battery life (using high end batteries) at brightness 7, which is good enough to be visible indoors during daylight. So essentially, you have a 3+oz. sight that can be left on constantly and will still last several years. I am a big fan of this sight. I have mine in a Larue mount. Total weight is 5.4oz and I can remove it from the rifle and replace it without losing zero.

2. The EOTech - I assume it also uses a battery? Plus, it looks like it's open enough that the dot could be washed out and not visible in bright sunlight?

Doesn't wash out; but the Eotech uses a laser to project the reticle (rather than the LED used by the Aimpoint). This means it is more power hungry, which is why it has an auto shut-off feature that turns it off after 8 hours if you leave it on. You are looking at more in the 1,000 hour range with the Eotech.

Everybody seems to love the Eotech's display (me included); but I am not a fan of the control arrangement, battery life, or durability compared to the other two sights you mention - not that I do anything that is likely to break any of these three sights

3. The ACOG - I notice some ACOG's have a neon bright colored fiber optic on top (presumably to gather light) and some don't. Is there a difference?

The fiber optic is used to supplement the tritium illumination. This means that the reticle is always illuminated for better contrast. Because the fiber optic gathers ambient light, it also adjusts reticle brightness automatically which can be both a good and bad thing. On bright sunny days, the reticle can be really bright - so many guys like to use electrical tape or an old inner tube to mask off part of the fiber optic tube and control the brightness. The reverse is also sometimes true. If you are shooting from a darkened area towards a bright well lit target, the fiber optic will not gather enough light and the reticle will be dark instead of illuminated (of course since your target is brightly lit, this usually works better anyway).

Those ACOGs without this tube are tritium only, this means that the reticle is normally black in daylight and illuminated only when it gets dark enough for the faint tritium light to be visible. These scopes also have an annoying period around dawn or dusk. The tritium lights up the reticle a little bit at this time; but not enough to give good contrast.

I also have a TA11 ACOG, which I love; but I recommend the TA33 to most people since it does 95% of what the TA11 does but is more compact and lighter (the TA11 by contrast is 17oz with Larue mount).

4. The LWRC M6 has a normal fixed front sight post and a Daniel Defense rear sight mounted on the rail. Is there any point to keeping the rear sight mounted? It wouldn't be usable with any of the above, would it?

This has already been well covered by others; but also keep in mind that you can use the Aimpoint or the Eotech as a big ghost ring rear sight at close ranges.

Some questions you might ask yourself since it will affect your sight preference:

1. Do you like a large field of view through the sight or do you prefer a smaller sight that allows you to keep both eyes open and see around it?

2. Do you want magnification? (Related questions are: Do you need to identify/acquire targets at a distance? What is the maximum distance you can do this with your naked eye?)

3. Is speed important to you? The red dots are very fast up close and start to become slower than magnified optics as distance increases. Where that happens varies from person to person and depends a lot on their individual eyesight, size of the target, etc.

4. Do you need to shoot from unusual positions (supine prone, rollover prone, SBU prone, around barricades with minimum exposure) or while moving? This requirement favors red dots also.

All of the optics you are looking at are great tools. The important thing is just to understand their various strengths and weaknesses and pick the one that suits your needs.

 

[Zerodefect]

Sounds like your on the right track. I prefere the larger Aimpoint Comp M3, or ML3 for 90% of my AR shooting.

Aimpoint ML3, ML2 (older), M3- each is extremly fast and durable. Scope can be left on for literally years before you need to swap out batteries. Quick to adjust brightness on. Much lighter and much more durable than Eotechs.

ML3 comes with a 4moa or 2 moa dot. I prefere the 2moa dot. But the 4moa blob is less squidy bloblike than the 2moa blob. At lower power levels the blob turns into a majic jelly bean of death. This deosn't effect your shooting, but if your anal about such things....

The included flip lens covers are a nice touch.

Best mount for these is a Larue LT-129. No contest there, lower 1/3rd Cowitness.

Eotech- fastest CQB sight ever made. But only a hair better than the Aimpoint.

Been having reliability problems lately with Eotechs. Slower to adjust than the Aimpoint, low battery life, heavy batteries. Circle recticle is pixelated, made up of dots. Don't expect it to be perfectly round and smooth like the adds. But it works fine.

Trijicon ACOG- TA11 rules! Check out Trijicons website for all the many, many recticles. They should have a comparo chart. I like the Green recticles the best. I also like haveing black lines for the recticle. So if I tape over the fibreoptic I sould have a black crosshair. Otherwise the green chevron works for me. The TA11's have my favorite amount of eye relief, and the most recticle choices.

Downsides- when entering indoors from a bright outside its hard to aim. many use a little reddot mounted on the rails like an Aimpoint T1 to supplement thier ACOG. Expensive.

The reason I like the ACOG's with the black crosshairs on the scope under the fibroptic lit one is because of the rectical disappearing when your in shade and shooting into a bright field, that happens alot. The black crosshairs will be easy to see still when the iluminated recticle fades.

Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x- Dont forget to check out this great sight. It uses the Bindon Aiming concept just like the ACOG, but is adjustable magnification. So you can have 1x speed like the Aimpoint, or ACOG range. Actually a little better range than most ACOGs.

Once again, larue has the perfect mount for the Accupoint. Check out thier combos:
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=325

Right now I actually prefere the Accupoint over the ACOG. Adjustable magnification is nice. 1x-6x would be sweeter. I wanted the TA55 (5X) on my long range AR. Instead I went with the 5X-20X, 50mm Accupoint instead.



Overall the Aimpoint ML3 with 2moa blob and Larue LT129 mount is the safest bet IMO. Tons of speed and it shoots out to 100-300 ranges easy. Holdover is easy when you turn the blobs brightness down.

All of these sights are desighned for both eyes open.


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