9mm in Australia

[bukijin]

Sorry about another 'help me choose' thread....I've recently got my pistol license here after training for a while on the pistol club's .22s. I'm now in a position to buy a 9mm semi automatic. I've fairly well decided on a Beretta 92FS brigadier model (blued finish), but I'd like some suggestions of handguns to compare it against before I buy.

My criteria are;
barrel length of (at least) 120mm (4.7") due to the new laws here.
SA/DA or possibly SA (can't carry it do there's no point in DAO)
Magazines are limited to 10 round capacity here so this does tend to favour handguns designed for singlestack magazines - so if anyone can recommend a slimmer gun than the beretta I'd like to compare them.
Price is not a major consideration - I want a new, quality gun that will last a long time.

Searching these forums, it seems that people also recommend Sig-Sauer, Browning hi-power and CZ-75 especially. What models fit the above criteria ? (CZ are not that much cheaper than berettas here). Other brands I've seen advertised here include H&K, Glock (I'm not a big fan though), Para Ordanance, Tangfolio and Taurus.

As I don't know much about handguns, I appreciate your help.

 

[Cableman]

1st choice for me would be the HK USP Fullsize in 9mm

I would get the HK USP. They are very reliable, very tough, very accurate, and have the best designed safety controls I have used. After I read about the tourture testing that went into HK's pistols, I bought one and it has been the most reliable pistol I have owned. They are a little spendy, but worth it in the end.

2nd choice is the Walther P99
3rd would be the Beretta 92

 

[Jim Watson]

What is it FOR?
Precision target shooting? Pay for a P210 or a S&W 952 if available.
Action shooting per IPSC? Beretta 92 G Elite II, H&K USP
Perhaps a STI Trojan, a 1911 type, if available there.

I am not in favor of Taurus, Tanfoglio, or Para-Ordnance.

 

[cmsgt]

Sig P225

G'day,

I have every caliber except 9mm; and I might have to fill that void this year. I would strongly recommend the Sig Sauer P225; it is a full size, single stack 9mm. (I have a P220st, P239 in .40, and a P232 in .380). I might buy a P225 this year.
I am on active duty with the Air Force and qualify yearly with the Beretta 92 which we carry under our flight suits. It's okay, but I prefer the Sig. No safety, hammer drop, easy disassembly, very accurate. If you ever saw Lethal Weapon 4 and saw how one can strip the slide from the frame of a Beretta (Mel's firearm), believe it. We practiced doing it, and after a few minutes. I became very proficient. Good points for the Beretta: disassembly is quick and they fit my hand. Don't like how the USP H&K fits me, but it certainly is well made. Have never fired one.
BTW, I used to teach school in Brisbane; great place.

 

[bukijin]

Sorry for not being specific as to the purpose. It's for having fun at the range. I'm not interested in precision target shooting (olympic style), but I would be interested in IPSC at some point in the future. Just because I can't carry it, doesn't mean that I'm not interested in practical shooting. Mainly I just want to have it because I can.

Unfortunately (after a quick web search) I think that the H&K USP fullsize has a 10.8mm barrel and the Sig 225 has a 98mm barrel - both of which soon won't be allowed here. I haven't seen Walter advertised here. What's the difference between the Beretta 92 G Elite II and the Brigadier ?

 

[New_comer]

In the HK USP series, I think only the Elite and the Expert comply with the barrel length requirement. Bad thing is, these two are a LOT more expensive than the USP standard.

Glock offers the long barreled G17L and the G34, Berettas and the clone Taurus PT92 series feature 5" barrels as standard.

I prefer the HK, but any of the other makes, yes, including the metal framed Taurus, would make fine range beaters.

 

[Wheels 'n' Guns]

9mm Handgun

My recomendation would also be for the Beretta 92FS. I shoot "for fun" at pins, and paper (at a Returned Soldiers Club in Sydney) and have been using a Beretta 92FS for about 6 months now. It is accurate, reliable, has a great "feel" and I've now got 10 shot mags for it. I have a red-spot sight for it but not yet fitted. Main reason I bought it is that boss of Beretta Australia, Luca Scribani Rossi is a good bloke and an active supporter of all the shooting sports.
Good Luck in whatever you choose.

 

[Berg01]

cmsgt, this is the only time that an ex A1C should ever contradict a Chief, but...

I would strongly recommend the Sig Sauer P225; it is a full size, single stack 9mm.

The P225 is actually the compact version of the P220, which I recommended as follows;

Take a look at the CZ-75B even without the price advantage over the Beretta. I'd also consider the BHP Mk. III and the Sig P220 9mm (if you can get either in Australia). These three would be my personal preference over the Beretta, however, If you like the 92FS, that is also a fine choice.

 

[cmsgt]

Sig model

ex A1C,

I believe the compact P220 is a P245 -- .45 caliber.
The P225 is carries fewer rds than the P226 9mm that held 15 rounds -- I had a P226 for a few years; made a profit on it due to 3 high capacity mags that I had. It is still used by Navy Seal teams. The P228 is the compact 9mm Sig that some army folks are issued holding 13 rds, I believe. I used to have one of those too.
Anyway, it is unfortunate that the P225 cannot be owned Down Under.
When I lived in Brisbane, only a few of the police (coppers) in Queensland, in town anyway,carried firearms; I suppose that has changed -- I read somewhere that the police in NSW were now carrying Glock 22s.

 

[WonderNine]

My recommendation would of course be the Browning Hi-Power. The problem may be that Hi-Powers are listed with either 4.65" or 4.75" barrels. In my experience (I may be wrong) I believe that the older pre-MKII and possibly some MKII's have the 4.65" barrel while the newer MKIII's have the 4.75" barrel. That may not be enough of a difference to matter (whether old HP or new) though if you're cool about it.

If I were you, I'd get myself a Hi-Power or a nice 1911. I assume that you can only own one handgun as they do in draconian countries, so might as well make it a REALLY NICE Hi-Power or a REALLY NICE 1911.

 

[Chugach]

If your new laws are already in affect, you can buy neither the SIG P220 nor the P226. They both have 4.4" barrel lengths:

http://www.sigarms.com/products/classicfullsize-models.asp?product_id=41

The SIG P210 still looks possible at 4.8", but it's an expensive pistol.

http://www.sigarms.com/products/p210.asp

I would recommend a SIG...hope you're able to get one. Failing that, a Beretta 92FS would be very good.

 

[Feral_Goz]

bukijin,
I was in your shoes not that long ago. I went looking for a 9mm and ended up with a 92FS Inox. One of my requirements was a hand gun that I could "readily" get parts for. Need to remember with the current climate in Australia, any parts ordered off shore can take an awful long time to get here. So, I started to shop around and ask about spare parts availability, namely magazines and recoil springs.
Berettas seemed to be the most popular handguns in the stores and the local range had one as a hire gun, that I duly gave a good workout.
My criteria was a handgun that met the legal requirements, was of good quality and had parts available. The 92FS got the nod after speaking to a few stores and doing a lot of reading in the forums.
Considering all the hoops you need to go through to be able to be in a position to guy a handgun, once you get it you want to be able to use it (as often as possible).

So my advice to you would be to check out the availability of spare parts in your travels. It's better to know how long parts will take to be ordered in, before you need them.

Feral_Goz

 

[greyhound]

Bukijin-

Just curious, will you be allowed to keep it at home for self defense, or do you have to leave it unloaded at your club?

Hope its the former!

 

[bukijin]

Thanks for the suggestions. In summary I'll take a look at the Beretta 92FS, HK USP (if it meets the legal requirements), Sig P210, Browning Hi Power Mk II or Mk III and the CZ-75B.

cmsgt: It's good to hear that you know Brisbane. It's changed a lot recently (for the better IMO)- used to be a small country town but now it's more like a real city. Police all use glocks now I believe. Someone more knowledgeable than I could confirm what type.

WonderNine: It hurts to hear that the 'lucky country' is perceived as 'draconian'. We aren't limited to one handgun however. Revolver is next

Feral_Goz: I hadn't thought about repairs and replacements. A wise man once said to me "When buying an axe, always get a spare handle" The army uses the Beretta don't they ?

greyhound: No we can keep them at home in a safe (which is in the strongroom of course).

 

[greyhound]

So do they come around checking that they're actually in the safe?

Does the govt. mandate the type of safe or that it be locked?

And can you keep 'em loaded in the safe?

What's the general feeling for using a handgun in self defense?

Sorry to be so curious, but I bet a lot of us here don't really know what's going on handgun wise over there. To my discredit, I thought that in Australia all guns had to be kept at the gun club.

 

[WonderNine]

The only reason I wouldn't go with the 92FS is because there are no preban mags down there, are there?

 

[Feral_Goz]

bukijin,
US Army uses the Beretta M9, Aus Army uses the Browing Hi Power (If memory serves me right). I read some of the stories on the US Army's testing on the M9 and figured if it was good enough for them, the 9sFS was good enough for me!!.

Greyhound/WonderNine
Can only keep your hand guns at home if you store them in an "approved" safe. The local Police (NSW at least) are informed that you have a hand gun license and can drop by any time and check out your storage arrangement and make sure that all of your firearms are registered. And you have to have the ammo locked up separately to the firearms. No loaded mags I'm afraid. Self defence isn't a "Good Reason" to own a firearm, same goes with hunting. Can only be used for target shooting at an approved range.

92FS is legal as long as you use 10 round mags. Barrel length is 125mm, so it just passes the requirement.

Here is a link for the safe storage requirements. As per usual, vague and open for many interpretations, so I err on the side of over storage. Gun locks and extra bolts for the safe.
http://www.ssaa.org.au/safestorage.pdf.

We just got our new handgun laws handed down and due to start on the 1st October.
If you suffer from insomnia, here is the legislation
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/fa1996102/
At times it makes me think that I should move to the US and get away from these fools. All they are doing is hurting the law abiding citizens (must have forgotten they are also voting citizens). So they are going to spend a whole heap of cash on a buyback that won't work. You see there is no compensation being offered for unregistered handguns (the ones the bad guys use).

Enough of a rant. There the rules, so I gotta abide by them. Let me know if you need any other info on the down under draconian laws in Aus.

Feral_Goz

 

[bukijin]

The new handgun (prohibited pistols) amendment act (NSW) isn't rational I think. Obviously it won't affect criminal ownership or use of handguns at all. (Career criminals obtain, carry and are prepared to use handguns no matter what the law is)

The caliber issue just doesn't make sense. There's no point in considering which calibre is good for defense because that isn't an option for us. Offensively in the hands of a criminal, a .22 handgun can be as dangerous as a .45.

I figure that we have about another 10 years until Australia finally becomes a republic. A guarantee of civil rights (including RKBA) would be nice to have in the new constitution. There was a private members bill introduced in NSW earlier in the year to have self defense considered a genuine reason but it didn't get anywhere of course. Still it is a bit extreme to want to move to another country. As people interested in firearms, we just have to do the best we can with the laws we have here. Probably the best thing is for shooting sports to become much more popular. It's a difficult activity to get into though because of all the red tape.

What model Beretta FS92 in particular do you recommend ? I'm interested to hear that the army use the Browning.

 

[keederdag]

WOW... I did'nt think you guy's could own handguns period! How about semi-auto rifle or pump shotguns? How are you supposed to transport your pistol to the range? What happens if you do shoot someone in self defence? And finally you guy's are plenty welcome in AZ, get citizenship we could use you here. We don't have any restriction even similiar to yours; yet anyway.

 

[Feral_Goz]

keederdag,
Semi auto rifles are now a thing of the past. Since 96 and whole Port Arthur incident, SA have gone the way of the dodo. I think the only way you can get a pump shotgun is if you are a clay shotgunner with a disability. You have to find a doctor to support you, in order to qualify for that level of license.
Gotta transport the handguns in a locked container and the ammo has to be in a separate locked container (varies slightly state to state).
If you shoot someone in self defence the cops come and take all of your guns until your day in court. Need to remember there is no legal justification for self defence (I wish we have a 2nd Amendment), so if you don't kill the BG the best that will happen to you is that they will take you guns (even the rifles) slap you in the face with a fine and disqualify you from having a license for 10 years. Kill the bad guy and you get locked up for 25 or life. Just doesn't make sense to me.:banghead:

bujikin,
The Aus Army doesn't really have a lot of use for handguns in general. Seems only officers and some special ops areas get to carry them. The infantry only uses rifles.

I picked the Inox 92FS as I liked the look of it more. The wife really liked the Inox, so in the end she decided that we should get it. (Gota let her have her way).

Which range do you go to?

 

[Gary A]

A question for our Australian friends. It was mentioned that the police have gone to Glocks. I seem to remember reading in unrelated news stories that about the time that the Australian gun laws began to become rather Draconian that Australian police began to switch from their traditional S&W Model 10s to Glock 17s. It troubled me and I wonder if it troubles you that at about the same time that citizens began to be effectively disarmed, the authorities found it necessary to significantly increase the firepower of the constabulary. The gulf between the citizen and the police seemed to me to have suddenly widened considerably. Does that trouble the average citizen in Australia, or do folks trust the state to be the only ones allowed to have firepower? If citizens are armed less, why do the police require more firepower? Firepower against whom?
Not trying to throw a dead cow in the well, just have always been troubled by what I see as obvious intimidation and an obvious "statement" from the state to the citizen.

 

[keederdag]

I troubles me....We have the same thing here though, every S.O. officer has a full auto ex-G.I. issue M-16 in his/her car. As you well know, we cannot go out and buy one. (Realistically anyhow)

 

[Feral_Goz]

Gary A,
Very valid observation. From memory when the police went to the Glock, it was to better arm themselves against the BGs. We are now suffering from a Prime Minister who has openly said he hates guns. Bet he doesn't hate the ones his security guards carry.
I hope that his time in power is limited.