9mm kurz in pocket pistols make more sense than 9mmx19?

[THplanes]

"And next month, we'll be offering our perpetual motion machine"

I'm sorry, but a standard pressure 95 gr. load with identical performance to a 115 gr. +P load? At 1,300 FPS, their load develops 356 ft/lbs. Most 115 gr. +P loads are 400-500 ft/lbs. So supposedly this lighter bullet (less momentum) with less energy (reduced ability to do work) can perform "just as good"? I'm waving the B.S. flag until I see it in person

You have to understand how the standard DPX gets penetration that's deeper than a standard bullet of the same weight. I opens slower. Most bullets in bare gell are fully expanded in and inch or two. DPX is more like 4 inch's. They could achieve the same penetration with the 95 gr by designing it to open even slower and or to a smaller diameter.

As an aside, I played with a lot of 88, 90, 95, 100gr. bullets in 9mm, with velocities from 1,200 to 1,650 FPS. Sierra, Speer, Barnes, Remington, Hornady, Magtech. Not one of them got 16" of penetration, most of them came apart. I would not use these for defense. I even consider 115's too light. 124 and 147 in a 9mm.

Those bullets are not designed for those velocities. Energy and speed are not what get you penetration anyway. Momentum, expansion characteristics and expanded diameter are what control penetration. Higher velocity can cause a bullet to open faster or fragment giving less penetration. The bullet must be designed for the velocity it's being used at. Not to mention, if you're using clay for these test, it's not a very good tissue simulant.

And on yet another note, 102 gr. Golden Saber handloads as fired from my P3AT achieved 1020 FPS for 235 ft/lbs. They penetrated deeper in clay than the 115 gr. 9mm loads. Both expanded, but the .380 exited the 12" block. The 9mm load did not. Once again, 115's are too light.

I'm with you on the Golden Saber for the .380. The factory loading will not expand reliable out of a P3AT. Hand-load them to over 1000 fps and they work well, its what I use. I'll still take a well designed 115 9mm over the .380 any day.

 

[MachIVshooter]

You have to understand how the standard DPX gets penetration that's deeper than a standard bullet of the same weight. I opens slower. Most bullets in bare gell are fully expanded in and inch or two. DPX is more like 4 inch's. They could achieve the same penetration with the 95 gr by designing it to open even slower and or to a smaller diameter.

I'm not arguing that it won't work better than a bullet of the same weight. I'm saying that I don't believe it'll perform better than the heavier XPB/Tac-XP.

Those bullets are not designed for those velocities. Energy and speed are not what get you penetration anyway. Momentum, expansion characteristics and expanded diameter are what control penetration. Higher velocity can cause a bullet to open faster or fragment giving less penetration. The bullet must be designed for the velocity it's being used at. Not to mention, if you're using clay for these test, it's not a very good tissue simulant.

Believe me, I understand how it works. And that's exactly why I'm skeptical of their claims. It's a Barnes Tac-XP bullet, and I haven't been able to find any velocity charts for it. But under 100 gr. .355" bullets have always been intended for the .380 and velocities in the sub-1,100 FPS range. Barnes lists these under 9x19 for application, so perhaps they really are meant for those higher velocities. But I'm still gonna have to see it to believe it.

 

[THplanes]

/ But under 100 gr. .355" bullets have always been intended for the .380 and in the sub-1,100 FPS range. Barnes lists these under 9x19 for application, so perhaps they really are meant for those higher velocities. But I'm still gonna have to see it to believe it.

Check out the Rohrbaugh forums. This was developed specifically for the R-9.It is a bullet that Corbon and Barnes developed for the R-9. Despite this a lot of people are having feed problems with the round. I don't believe it will outperform the 115 gr X bullet either. It's meant as a low recoil round that will still give good penetration. They have to give up some diameter or make it open very slow.

 

[Dr_B]

I recently picked up an LC9 and have been carrying it most of the time. I have to admit it is a very nice carrying gun. Very comfortable.

I was carrying the Sig P238 before that. I changed to the P238 from the Ruger LCP because of the trigger. I'm finding the trigger on the LC9 to basically be a larger version of the LCP. I am also constantly annoyed by all the safeties on the LC9. I just don't think they are necessary.

Now, I shoot the LC9 well at the range. I can hit 8-inch steel plates with it at 25 yards. But if I were in a panic I don't think follow-up shots would be accurate at all... because of the trigger. It's like the gun was designed to NOT be fired. The P238 has a very nice trigger and I am accurate with it.

Also, and maybe people can comment on this, I am seeing a lot of people putting down the .380 cartridge as too weak. I suspect that is partly because the new smaller 9mm's like the PF9 and LC9 are coming on the market and there is a fad happening. I'm not convinced the .380 is insufficient for me. I don't live in a high-crime area and I'm not an LEO.

Overall, I'm thinking of ditching the LC9 and going back to the .380.