A legislator gets the idea, re: school shootings

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But carrying at school means you will have numerous innocents in the line of fire. Not may, but will.
Following ths false logic would support the prohibition of CCW just about everywhere that you are likely to need it.

Good grief. Nice job of taking one sentence out of context. There is no false logic, as the statement you pulled is just a statement. I did not make the above statement and then suggest that teachers or anyone else be prohibitted from carrying anywhere. I simply stated that at school you will have numerous innocents. Are you saying that statement is incorrect?

Second, nowhere will you see me advocate prohibition of CCW. I bring up the abundance of innocents guaranteed to be there to suggest that a higher standard of training be in place over and above the basic CCW course, NOT TO SUGGEST THAT ANYONE NOT BE ALLOWED TO CARRY. Clear enough?

I've seen the people that "qualify" at the end of their CCW course. There are some I'd be much more comfortable with if I had a BG with a gun to my head. There are some that I'd just as soon not try and save me if the BG had a gun to my head. I do advocate additional training to help slant the odds that the good guy with the gun is not the guy who barely passed. I'm on your freakin side, so back off!
 
Instead, let's have a law wherein any citizen in America is permitted to own effective weapons, and also permitted to carry those weapons around with them wherever they go.

Already exists Pax (unless you don't consider the Constitution law). What good is a second law saying the exact same thing :confused:

carrying at school means you will have numerous innocents in the line of fire

I doubt it. The crazed gunman will be easy to recognize. He's the one NOT cowering under a desk or laying flat on the floor. Anybody with an opportunity to run is going to be long gone.
 
A firearm in the hands of someone who isn't willing or able to effectively employ it is as useless as fighting a flood with a fire extinguisher.

The best we can hope for is an eliminating the stupid restriction about possessing firearms on school grounds.

Any programs that require school staff to be armed are going to be too expensive and heavily regulated to get enough participation. School districts (and those of us who pay for them) aren't going to be willing to take on the liability of actually arming the staff.

There are too many people in the gun culture who think the mere presence of a firearm in the hands of the good guy is the solution to all violent crime. Well that simply isn't so. Unless the firearm is in the hands of someone who's willing to act, it's useless. If it's in the hands of someone who's willing to act, but untrained in how to act, it could worse then useless.

Jeff
 
I don't see why some of you have such a defeatist attitude.

My state already allows guns in school. I know of, and have taught, many teachers who carry. I've taught teachers who went ahead and carried at school even when they could still be fired by their school districts. (even if they didn't break any laws).

There is one other state that allows the same, but I'm not sure which one it is.

I'm with Pax on this one. Allow the people who already exercise the right everywhere else to do it at work also.

I don't like the talk of "arming teachers". I'm afraid that that would work out about the same as our wonderful "arming pilots" programs. Take something that should a simple, voluntary thing, and turn it into some bureacratic nightmare.

No special regulations. No special training. No mandatory anything at all. Just CCW in the workplace like anybody else.
 
Thomas Watt Hamilton (May 10, 1952 – March 13, 1996) was a Scottish mass murderer at Dunblane, Scotland in(NOT TRUE,SEE HUNGERFORD,AMMENDED BY STERLING180).Britain's worst gun rampage. He was 43 years old when he committed the Dunblane massacre, the killing of 16 small children and a teacher in a primary school, and subsequently committed suicide. He had been a Scout leader in 1973, but was asked to leave because of complaints about his behaviour at camp. He tried many times to get back into the organization.

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Aftermath
3 Guns
4 Suspicions
5 Obsession
6 External links



[edit]
History
Hamilton, who had a history of interest in guns, was the legal owner of the firearms used in the shooting and a popular member of local gun clubs.

People who knew him alleged he was embittered by rejection and obsessed with small boys. He was quoted as saying that he was "Fresh obsessed, the younger the better". Reports claimed that he was a pedophile who made the boys in his club participate in questionable activities. A prime example of this was ordering the boys to strip down to the waist, and photographing them for his own enjoyment purposes. [1] Throughout the years he ran a variety of boys' clubs. [2] His behaviour had come to the attention of the police and at one point he had been refused the use of Dunblane primary school premises for one of his clubs. Despite some concern over his behaviour with firearms, there were no substantiated complaints against him that would have clearly allowed the police to revoke his firearm certificate (FAC). It has been suggested that his success at obtaining the support of fellow shooters to support his rights to keep his guns discouraged the police from any attempt to revoke his FAC on a more marginal basis.

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Aftermath
A special report into the events leading to the Dunblane murders was compiled by the Sportsman’s Association with a foreword and commendation by the Rt. Hon. Frank Cook, MP.

Following Hamilton's shooting spree, a formal inquiry was held by Lord Cullen. While Cullen concluded that target pistol shooting should be allowed to continue in the UK, successive Conservative and Labour Governments introduced legislation which banned the private ownership of pistols and effectively ended the sport. The government felt that only the citizens of mainland Britain should be affected by the ban and the residents of Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, Jersey, and Guernsey continue to enjoy the sport.

The Sportsman’s Association report identifies 18 documented procedural failings by Central Scottish Police, each of which in its own right should have resulted in Hamilton’s Firearms Certificate (FAC) being revoked well before Dunblane.

Cullen was critical of the police’s actions in his inquiry report and yet one of his strong recommendations, to create a national database of firearms, has still not been introduced 10 years after the Dunblane shooting.

The Sportsman’s Association report highlights the following police failings:

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Guns
Hamilton lied when he applied for his first FAC in 1977. The police never checked his claim to be a full member of a local pistol club. If this claim had been checked, Hamilton might never have been allowed to own a firearm from the outset.

Hamilton illegally exchanged a pistol he had bought early in 1977. Firearms cannot legally be exchanged like other goods and set procedures must be observed under the terms and conditions of a FAC. The firearms dealer checked with the police that the transaction could be authorised and advised Hamilton to call at the police station on his way home or at the latest the next morning to have the transaction ratified on his FAC. In fact, he never did and the police failed to check their records after the dealer had informed them that Hamilton had purchased a gun illegally. No proper investigation was held into the illegal exchange and Hamilton was simply given a verbal warning.

In November 1979, Hamilton applied to vary his FAC to acquire a .357 calibre revolver (the gun he eventually killed himself with) and a .270 calibre rifle. To justify acquisition of these guns Hamilton stated that he was a member of the Dunblane Rifle Club and that he was waiting membership of the Clyde Valley Pistol Club. There is no evidence to prove he was a member of either club and he studiously avoided mentioning membership of the Callendar Rifle and Pistol Club which he had cited to get his first FAC.

There is no record of Hamilton ever being a member of the Clyde Valley club and club members have no recollection of him. The club’s records were removed by the police after the tragedy but there are doubts as to whether they were returned intact. The police however maintained that they had proof of his membership. Without evidence of membership of a suitable club where the .357 revolver and .270 rifle could be used the police should not have allowed a variation to acquire such guns.

Even more fundamentally, neither of the clubs Hamilton cited possessed range facilities for such guns and a simple check with the club secretaries would have revealed this. Handwriting experts who examined Hamilton’s application form believed that some sections had been completed by another person, probably a police officer.

In January 1983, November 1986, and March 1987, Hamilton applied for variations to his FAC. He also made applications to renew his FAC in 1992 and 1995. A basic check with the cited clubs during these periods would have revealed his inactive memberships at each club he listed, which would have been sufficient grounds not to renew his FAC or, at the very least, challenge his reason for possession of firearms. Hamilton was allowed more than one gun of the same calibre, a concession usually only afforded to regular and competitive shooters. The police didn’t bother to check with the appropriate clubs and shooting organisations to see whether Hamilton met these criteria.

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Suspicions
At the same time as Hamilton was being granted authority to possess firearms and ammunition contrary to the Firearms Acts, there were growing concerns among some police officers about Hamilton’s character, his unhealthy interest in young boys, his dismissal from the Scouting movement and his general unfitness to possess firearms. None of the doubts and concerns about Hamilton were properly filed or recorded. An impassioned appeal from a senior officer for the withdrawal of Hamilton’s FAC was rejected. Hamilton consistently lied to police and school authorities about his qualifications and management of boys clubs he ran. There was widespread suspicion about his motives and behaviour but an apparent difficulty in obtaining evidence. At different times various police officers sought warrants to search Hamilton’s home, submitted reports to the Procurator Fiscal, considered charging him with obstruction, and on two occasions considered legal action for defamation. This was occurring while police were still varying and renewing Hamilton’s FAC.

Eventually, a sergeant investigating Hamilton’s possible abuse of young boys discovered that he possessed a FAC. On November 11, 1991, the sergeant wrote to CID headquarters urging the withdrawal of Hamilton’s FAC. He wrote, “I am firmly of the opinion that Hamilton is an unsavoury and unstable personality…I would contend that Mr Hamilton is a risk to children…and that he appears to me to be an unsuitable person to possess a Firearm Certificate in view if the number of times he has come to the adverse attention of the Police and his apparent instability…I respectfully request that serious consideration is given to withdrawing this man’s Firearm Certificate as a precautionary measure…” (Cullen: para 6.42)

The sergeant’s superior officer endorsed this with the statement, “I do agree with DS Hughes’s appraisal of Mr Hamilton. Do we have any latitude for progress in respect of the revocation of his certificate?” (Cullen: para 6.42). Senior officers concluded that as Hamilton had not been convicted of a crime it was neither possible nor fair to revoke his FAC No record of DS Hughes’ investigation of Hamilton was entered into Hamilton’s FAC file, “a glaring deficiency in the operation of the force’s information systems” (Cullen: para 6.72).

Hamilton, sensing Hughes’ concern, resorted to complaining about the police. The Chief Constable sought legal advice whether to sue Hamilton for defamation. Again these events were not entered into Hamilton’s FAC file. Gun ownership in Britain is not an unconditional right – applicants must prove their fitness, competence and good reason to possess firearms. Hamilton blatantly failed on these counts but was still considered by senior police officers to be a suitable person to hold a FAC.

In early 1989, Hamilton was reported to police for taking firearms to the home of a boys club member in Linlithgow. Photographs were taken of the event. The sergeant who investigated the complaint did not feel Hamilton’s actions were normal or that a FAC holder should act in such a way. He reported his concerns to Inspector Nimmo of Stirling Police, who reported to a superior, DCC McMurdo, that “It may be a quite harmless display of weapons, but nevertheless an action which leaves a lot to be desired” (Cullen: para 4.69).

According to British law, firearms must be in the possession of the FAC holder when travelling to and from home to a shooting range or to a firearms dealer or gunsmiths, making Hamilton's behavior illegal. Again, Hamilton's crimes were not officially recorded on Hamilton’s FAC file.

In 1995 Hamilton’s final renewal of his FAC came up. The police officer who investigated his application later said she was disturbed and intimidated by him and felt unhappy about signing off his form. There was nothing on Hamilton’s FAC file to confirm her concerns, and a senior officer (whose evidence on this point Cullen chose not to believe) told her that there was nothing against Hamilton and nothing could be done. This was the last time that the police could have justifiably revoked Hamilton’s FAC and prevented him possessing firearms. A man suspected of being a danger to children, who had harassed police officers, been expelled from the Scottish Scout Movement and acted irresponsibly with firearms was allowed to own four pistols and buy several rounds of ammunition weeks before murdering 16 children and a teacher.

Thomas Hamilton allegedly shot himself four times with his .357 revolver, once in his stomach, once in his chest, once in the side of his head, and once through his mouth.

An inquiry was held into the events that day, and though the documents were originally sealed for 100 years, it was decided that this was illegal and the seal was broken. The "facts" about Thomas Hamilton and what happened on the day of the "Dunblane Massacre" are disputed still, in spite of, or perhaps because of, the inquiry that was held. It is also doubted if Hamilton acted alone, had an accomplice or if he was the unrecognized 18th victim of the massacre.

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Obsession
It is also believed he was obsessed woth horror films such as Halloween.[citation needed]


Its disgraceful that the cops didn't do their job properly,in catching this deviant,before he committed the murders. Any incident makes the liberals more determined to end gun rights.At the time of the Dunblane massacre,many schools invested in security gates,fences,cameras,etc,etc,that made them look like the nearest state prison,but one of my uncles said that if a nutcase is determined to enter a public building and kill at random,then they will and there isn't alot anyone can do about it,other than run or shoot to kill.

In the UK,gun massacres are rare anyway and the two deviants that caused the two major massacres,in the past,were known to the cops and locals as creeps.
 
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