rainbowbob
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I suggest you PM the mod and ask why. You may learn something. I have when I was locked down. I soon learned what flys and what doesn't - and why.
"a swift firefight"
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I suggest you PM the mod and ask why. You may learn something. I have when I was locked down. I soon learned what flys and what doesn't - and why.
walker944
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I hate to give the guy any kind of credit, but from what I read, Pres Obama gave the order to take action if the captain's live was in imminant danger. When the pirate leveled the AK-47 to the back of the captured pilot, the Navy captain gave the order to the snipers to shoot the three pirates in the boat. The fourth pirate was on-board the Naval vessel negotiating the release of the captured captain. That fourth pirate is now in US military custody. Thumbs up to Obama on that one!
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/12/somalia.pirates/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/12/somalia.pirates/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
The fourth pirate is a 16-year old kid who apparently surrendered. Chances are he's one of the countless kids who, born in a war-torn, stateless country get caught up in this kind of thing, often against their will as child soldiers. I imagine he had little choice, and was thrilled once he got on the a US ship, got some decent medical care and a warm meal, and is hoping that he gets sent anywhere but back to Somalia. If I'm right on this, I hope he gets a second chance somewhere else.
As for Obama, he'll get a lot of credit for this, I'm sure, some deserved, some not. But it's really a non-brainer that just about any president would have ordered. These conversations that "Had Bush ordered it he would have been condemned" are silly - even his die-hard opponents would have been okay with this. It's standard law enforcement procedure to act when the life of a hostage is in danger. The captain's was, the SEALs took action. Pretty textbook to me, it seems.
rainbowbob
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I predict he gets his fifteen minutes of fame on cable - maybe even Oprah.
Hungry Seagull
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I dont care who is in that White House, just need a President with a Pair that supports the necessary actions our Military must take. I will give the thumbs up for this round. But look foward to final solutions to this problem in that part of the world.
weapons for use against pirates...
I know a lot of navy ships have arms rooms containing M16s and even some M14s for popping mines, M9 handguns, various shotguns, and m60 or M240 machineguns, which come with pintel mount which can be popped into any number of holes for them that are all over the edges of navy ships.
Still, an M240 on a rolling ship vs a little pirate craft...I'd want a bit more range.
Of course there is the classic Ma Duce and I would think she'd be an awesome girl for the job, but history tells me that in light naval craft engangements, the ma duce can fall short. Sure, you can souse any crew, but crippling a fleeing ship is something you need to be almost on top of them to do with the Ma Duce.
This brings us to the Oerlikon 20x70 mm cannon. This fine lady was designed to take on light naval craft as well as early airplane attacks. The US Navy looked at them and passed, but later models were improved and we bought a BUNCH of them. These later guns were specifically designed to be easy to operate by non-specialists...basically by fishermen and merchant marines. A lot of civiilain craft were fitted with them. This is an idea whose time has returned. Has a 60 round drum magazine.
After WW2 the supplies and spares of this gun were running low so the Navy modified the 20mm cannon most of our aircraft were carrying. Of course this was 20x110mm so there was an improvment in range there, as well as the gun was belt-fed so you had a lot more capacity. Or more precisely it feeds rounds dumped into it, but these rounds are fed into it most often by a belt feeder and a delinker.
This to me seems an ideal pirate protection. These guns are often found on our coast guard vessles. I figure the same properties for taking on the small ships drug runners use would make it work just fine against pirates too. I also believe this was used on a lot of the patrol boats during the Vietnam war.
A while later, the US Navy stepped up to a Chaingun. Supposely this was during the Persian Gulf. It is 25mmx137 and is termed 'chain gun' because the bolt is chain driven...which means it is not a traditional automatic, but I suspect more akin to the old gatling gun if you hooked up a small motor and belt to turn the handle for you. These guns didn't fare to well on a big bouncing ship vs small ships, so they were given all sorts of fancy electronics to take care of that. This would be good for our own navy, but I suspect it would be cost prohibitive to start sticking these on the fore and aft of every merchant shipper out there.
I know a lot of navy ships have arms rooms containing M16s and even some M14s for popping mines, M9 handguns, various shotguns, and m60 or M240 machineguns, which come with pintel mount which can be popped into any number of holes for them that are all over the edges of navy ships.
Still, an M240 on a rolling ship vs a little pirate craft...I'd want a bit more range.
Of course there is the classic Ma Duce and I would think she'd be an awesome girl for the job, but history tells me that in light naval craft engangements, the ma duce can fall short. Sure, you can souse any crew, but crippling a fleeing ship is something you need to be almost on top of them to do with the Ma Duce.
This brings us to the Oerlikon 20x70 mm cannon. This fine lady was designed to take on light naval craft as well as early airplane attacks. The US Navy looked at them and passed, but later models were improved and we bought a BUNCH of them. These later guns were specifically designed to be easy to operate by non-specialists...basically by fishermen and merchant marines. A lot of civiilain craft were fitted with them. This is an idea whose time has returned. Has a 60 round drum magazine.
After WW2 the supplies and spares of this gun were running low so the Navy modified the 20mm cannon most of our aircraft were carrying. Of course this was 20x110mm so there was an improvment in range there, as well as the gun was belt-fed so you had a lot more capacity. Or more precisely it feeds rounds dumped into it, but these rounds are fed into it most often by a belt feeder and a delinker.
This to me seems an ideal pirate protection. These guns are often found on our coast guard vessles. I figure the same properties for taking on the small ships drug runners use would make it work just fine against pirates too. I also believe this was used on a lot of the patrol boats during the Vietnam war.
A while later, the US Navy stepped up to a Chaingun. Supposely this was during the Persian Gulf. It is 25mmx137 and is termed 'chain gun' because the bolt is chain driven...which means it is not a traditional automatic, but I suspect more akin to the old gatling gun if you hooked up a small motor and belt to turn the handle for you. These guns didn't fare to well on a big bouncing ship vs small ships, so they were given all sorts of fancy electronics to take care of that. This would be good for our own navy, but I suspect it would be cost prohibitive to start sticking these on the fore and aft of every merchant shipper out there.
rbernie
Contributing Member
The fact that guns are used in an event doesn't automatically endow that event with any real RKBA content.
In this case, we're on that tipping point. Talking about the shootin' aspects of the rescue - that's THR territory. Talking about who gets political credit and/or the redemption (or incarceration) of the pirates is not THR territory.
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Hungry Seagull
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And why not?
One upon atime long ago the NATO Atlantic Force visited Baltimore when I was wee child. One of the sailors on the HMS Arrow put me up against the 20mm that ship had abaft the bridge on the port side and I got familiar with the weapon. I stick my pocket camera and take a picture of it's gunsight view which so happened to frame the USS Torsk across the harbor nicely.
I dont know if I still have that shot, if I do I will scan and post it here.
Place the guns aboard the merchies to cover 6 seperate positions around the ship, three to each side and bring in a techie to keep em running.
Cheap compared to poor image, lost time, forced payout of ransom money, lost transit time, delayed cargo, etc etc etc etc....
I wont even talk about the movie Spaceball. For the time, it was a very... laughter inducing movie of it's day. What was that scene? Oh yes, "Ludicrous Speed NOW!!!!!"
One upon atime long ago the NATO Atlantic Force visited Baltimore when I was wee child. One of the sailors on the HMS Arrow put me up against the 20mm that ship had abaft the bridge on the port side and I got familiar with the weapon. I stick my pocket camera and take a picture of it's gunsight view which so happened to frame the USS Torsk across the harbor nicely.
I dont know if I still have that shot, if I do I will scan and post it here.
Place the guns aboard the merchies to cover 6 seperate positions around the ship, three to each side and bring in a techie to keep em running.
Cheap compared to poor image, lost time, forced payout of ransom money, lost transit time, delayed cargo, etc etc etc etc....
I wont even talk about the movie Spaceball. For the time, it was a very... laughter inducing movie of it's day. What was that scene? Oh yes, "Ludicrous Speed NOW!!!!!"
In WWII, U.S. and British Navies put guns and gun crews aboard merchant vessels. Those vessels were privately owned and otherwise civilian crewed, but the nations had the right to do what they did to protect them and their cargos.
I think every nation that allows use of its flag on merchant vessels has a navy. Some may be small, maybe only a patrol boat, but they have a navy, and could recruit for that navy. If they wanted, they could obtain weapons (.50 Cal, 20mm) from the U.S. and put gun crews on their vessels.
I can't see any international or legal problem that could not be easily resolved.
Jim
I think every nation that allows use of its flag on merchant vessels has a navy. Some may be small, maybe only a patrol boat, but they have a navy, and could recruit for that navy. If they wanted, they could obtain weapons (.50 Cal, 20mm) from the U.S. and put gun crews on their vessels.
I can't see any international or legal problem that could not be easily resolved.
Jim
Hungry Seagull
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Fox just reported that the Italians are sad because their navy may not be able to help. We go through alot to save one American but not the 10 Italians and 6 others on the other ship. But dont worry, I think now we cook up something good for those Italians yah?
Gad, there is nothing worthy on the sea than to engage and kill Pirates and protect Commerce. It's just that simple. Love it when it gets done.
Gad, there is nothing worthy on the sea than to engage and kill Pirates and protect Commerce. It's just that simple. Love it when it gets done.
In terms of what is in inventory, and could be readily mounted to defend against small boats with small arms, the Mk 19 has been inventory for years. It will easily outrange RPG-7 series and all 7.62x39 and even 7.62x54mm fire and penetrate up to 2" of armor.
More expensive and rare, the Mk 47 gives improved first-round hits. The ODA tended to fire single rounds with this, as opposed to bursts with the Mk 19. (Picture from March 07, Kapisa Province, Afghanistan.)
The Barrett M82 could be used to stop small boats at distance (again, outside RPG-7 range) without killing everyone on board, if that was an actual concern.
Mk 19s or M82s would be fairly economical to add to any ship, wouldn't take up a great deal of room, and there are literally thousands of service members who already know how to operate the Mk 19. While it would take a little longer to be an expert at all aspects of the weapon, you could train almost anyone to use the Mk 19 in a week or less.
John
More expensive and rare, the Mk 47 gives improved first-round hits. The ODA tended to fire single rounds with this, as opposed to bursts with the Mk 19. (Picture from March 07, Kapisa Province, Afghanistan.)
The Barrett M82 could be used to stop small boats at distance (again, outside RPG-7 range) without killing everyone on board, if that was an actual concern.
Mk 19s or M82s would be fairly economical to add to any ship, wouldn't take up a great deal of room, and there are literally thousands of service members who already know how to operate the Mk 19. While it would take a little longer to be an expert at all aspects of the weapon, you could train almost anyone to use the Mk 19 in a week or less.
John
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I don't know how many are actually still in stores, but the first thought that came to mind was of 40mm Bofors. These evidently have a range of about 8500 meters with AP rounds, and would greatly outrange even advanced weaponry like the TOW II. Of course, mounting these would entail a great deal more work than just mounting an 80-lb Mk 19!
J
These evidently have a range of about 8500 meters with AP rounds, and would greatly outrange even advanced weaponry like the TOW II. Of course, mounting these would entail a great deal more work than just mounting an 80-lb Mk 19!J
I'm not sure how many are still serviceable, or could be soon made 'Ready-To-Use', but like Moderator JShirely stated, the 40MM Bofors Cannon works for me!
I had forgotten till I saw the picture, just how big the Bofors is...Can you imagine peering through the sights of your AK-XX, or RPG-7 launcher and seeing one of those double-barrel Bofors Cannons peering back at YOU ? ! ! !
Open P.S. to the Somali Pirates...Hey you wanna try "Fisticuffs in the Alley" with the US Navy? ? ? Bring it on...and don't bother bringing your chairs and brown bag lunches...it will be a very short day for you.
I had forgotten till I saw the picture, just how big the Bofors is...Can you imagine peering through the sights of your AK-XX, or RPG-7 launcher and seeing one of those double-barrel Bofors Cannons peering back at YOU ? ! ! !
Open P.S. to the Somali Pirates...Hey you wanna try "Fisticuffs in the Alley" with the US Navy? ? ? Bring it on...and don't bother bringing your chairs and brown bag lunches...it will be a very short day for you.
OP
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my OP was based on the series of Fox news articles ... all was sketchy until last night.
Range isn't the issue.... you can't just open up and blast anything that floats withing 500 meters.
I doubt they feel they can legally do anything until the small boats display hostile actions...
These pirate types look no different than legitimate fishing types until they're inside 20 yards and the grappling hooks come up.
I also wonder if they aren't displaying distress signals, which a sea captain can be legally bound to respond to...
small arms and repel boarders drills would go a long ways....
Shots across the bow with that 40mm Boffers would as well.
Read up on the Barbary pirates.... very interesting, with a long and sorded history. They were not affectively dealt with until their home ports were captured .... recall "the shores of Tripoli"!
imho, it's going to continue until someone gets some spine and hits the Somalian ports and sinks everything that floats. That's going to involve civilian casualties.... O-man isn't going to have any stomach for that.
Range isn't the issue.... you can't just open up and blast anything that floats withing 500 meters.
I doubt they feel they can legally do anything until the small boats display hostile actions...
These pirate types look no different than legitimate fishing types until they're inside 20 yards and the grappling hooks come up.
I also wonder if they aren't displaying distress signals, which a sea captain can be legally bound to respond to...
small arms and repel boarders drills would go a long ways....
Shots across the bow with that 40mm Boffers would as well.
Read up on the Barbary pirates.... very interesting, with a long and sorded history. They were not affectively dealt with until their home ports were captured .... recall "the shores of Tripoli"!
imho, it's going to continue until someone gets some spine and hits the Somalian ports and sinks everything that floats. That's going to involve civilian casualties.... O-man isn't going to have any stomach for that.
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