accuracy suggestions

[IlikeSA]

I tried out a new powder, some new loads, and some new bullets today at the range. Just because I list the loads does not mean you should try them in your gun.

The first was a 180 grain XTP (.357 diameter) long loaded in front of 15 grains of Lil Gun. By long loaded I mean crimped in the lower cannelure. Since I don't have a chronograph I don't know the speed, but my load data estimated it at 1422 fps. It grouped at 2-3 inches off a bag full of shot at 25 yards. The second was a similar load but loaded in the upper cannelure, and it was also somewhere between 2 and 3 inches at 25 yards.

Now's the kicker: I shot a control load of which I have grouped at 2.5 inches and it was at least a 6 inch group this time at 25 yards. The control load is 14 grains of 2400 behind a 158 grain coated, bevel based LSWC (.358).

It became worse when I tried a coated 158 grain bevel based LSWC in front of 17 grains of Lil gun (estimated at 1445 fps) and 19 grains of Lil gun (1559 fps), with bullets landing all over the paper plate in a shotgun type pattern for both loads. This was all supported single action off a bag of shot.

Finally, I shot another control load of Miwall 158 grain TMJ, and it shot another 2-3 inch group at 25 yards.

Any ideas what may be happening, and what I could do to improve it? I really prefer shooting LSWC because they are much cheaper than jacketed.

 

[Wildfire]

The cast bullet hardness is not said. If it is too soft, you may be burning past it and groups will show that. 1400 plus feet per second is pretty fast for cast bullets. Try slowing it down a tad. Any decent .357 should toss amazing groups with a 158 cast bullet. Half of what you are showing. I run mine at around 1250 and they shoot very nice. More than enough power. I also use AA#9 powder and it has worked extremely well in all my .357s and even in the 77/357 rifle. I am also not much of a fan of coated bullets in the .357. We do not get leading with a cast bullet at around 10 or wheel weigh hardness. I would also chrono these. The book is not always right on. All I shoot are cast 158s. I make my own and have a lot of them. I lube them and never use coatings. I guess I assumed these were handgun loads. If so, all of these loads sound a tad hot to me.

 

[IlikeSA]

These are revolver loads from a 5.5 inch Redhawk. Acme, the manufacturer, rates these bullets at BHN 16 and they are a 92-6-2 lead alloy.

 

[Wildfire]

After doing some looking, I cannot find any loads going as high as what you are showing here for the .357 mags. My books show max load of 2400 at 14.9 grains.
And a velocity of 1279 with a jacketed 158. The fastest 18o grain runs at just under 1100 fps. Is this gun a Maximum or magnum? Best I can see the heavy loads pushing extreme limits are burning the base of the bullets.

 

[Wildfire]

The Red hawk is why it has not blown yet. Most .357 mag wheel guns would not take that and hang in there for very long.I would slow all of them down and see what groups you get then. AA#9 is very accurate in all of mine.

 

[Wildfire]

With the extreme high velocity you show I would have to assume even the best cast bullets at 16 are doing some skidding in that barrel. Sliding down rifling before they get the chance to actually spin. This can happen when pushed too fast. It will cause very poor accuracy.

 

[IlikeSA]

Thanks for the input. That's a bummer, as I liked those loads (and published speeds) for hunting and long range loads. Do you think gas checked bullets would fare better?

 

[Wildfire]

I have never had to use them at normal magnum speeds. We use .357 an d.45 colt and deer hunt and hog hunt. Both of my young grand daughters shot pigs last year. 200 lb class. One was 70 yards and the .357 hard cast bullets {wheel weights} dropped that hog in it tracks and it was dead when it hit the dirt. The other little gal dumped one at 40 yards same rifle and it went 10 feet. My hog was 250 and went down with my .45 colt. The .357s were running at 1250 and the Colt was running 850fps. Both are very nice deer loads. I love my cast bullets.

 

[Wildfire]

I am making a new sizer die for my .45 colt to eliminate skidding the cast bullets. Fact is I do not know if this happens in that gun. But, at .452" they may not be grabbing the twist right. I am building a die at .453". .454" sounds too big.
The .357s always ran very accurate at 1250 fps and had way more than enough punch at the critters. The cast bullet will cut its way through bone and anything else in its way. They hit hard. I have video of the hogs being hit with that bullet. You do not need more velocity.

 

[Walkalong]

The first was a 180 grain XTP (.357 diameter) long loaded in front of 15 grains of Lil Gun. By long loaded I mean crimped in the lower cannelure. Since I don't have a chronograph I don't know the speed, but my load data estimated it at 1422 fps.

Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.357"
1.575"
13.0
1,279
27,500 CUP
15.0
1,422
34,500 CUP

Did you start at 15.0 Grs? If so, that is a bad idea.

It became worse when I tried a coated 158 grain bevel based LSWC in front of 17 grains of Lil gun (estimated at 1445 fps) and 19 grains of Lil gun (1559 fps)

Without knowing bullet hardness, size, lube etc., I have to just guess, but my guess is either they are too soft and are suffering from gas cutting and or skidding, or they are undersized for the throats and suffering from gas cutting and skidding. Could be an assortment of things. Either way, did you start lower and experience good accuracy at lower levels? Where did those charge weights and velocities come from?

 

[TimSr]

Thanks for the input. That's a bummer, as I liked those loads (and published speeds) for hunting and long range loads. Do you think gas checked bullets would fare better?

Yes, but so would some regular MBC BRN18 bullets without gas checks.

I don't use Lil Gun, which might be a factor in your results, but I am running BRN 18 bullets over max published loads 296/110 in both .357 and .44, and am getting great accuracy, and no leading.

 

[IlikeSA]

I generally always start (and finish) with a max load for the Redhawk. While I have read of others who push it beyond max and get away with it (180's at 1550) I don't have the courage to try it. Besides, both the 17 and the 19 grains of Lil Gun behind a 158 hurts the hand enough to make me put on a glove. I definitely wouldn't want to shoot this through any other gun. The brass still extracts easily though.

I pulled the load data off of handloads.com. I have read a lot of JohnK's postings on forums and decided to try out some of his loadings.

I have some 296 and H110, perhaps Ill give it another go around as well.

 

[41 Mag]

I'm not sure what is going on with your loads. I can say that I am shooting a softish 12BHN 160gr cast HP out of my 6" GP-100's at a touch over 1300fps with no ill effects and great accuracy. I have shot the same bullets plain with standard lube and coated getting the same performance from either one.

The load was worked up in both of my revolvers and is listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet and the Pistol and Revolver manuals for a 170gr using AA-9. They list a 4" test barrel and both of mine are 6". I have also run some 125gr cast HP's from the same alloy over top end loads of 296 with equally good results. Thee is no telling how many rounds of upper end JHP's have been through these two as well getting good accuracy.

Personally I have had issues with Lil Gun no matter how much I tried to like it, it simply did not fair as well as other powders like AA-5, 7, & 9, or 2400 or 296 for the cast and especially the heavier loads. I had similar issues with Blue Dot and some loads, it simply didn't work out for me. It might be the case with your loads as well, have you tried those bullets with any other powder?

You also might answer the other questions on the loads as well. If your simply picking the top end loads just because you have a Redhawk, 1) your missing some of the best loads you might ever shoot. 2) Just because it is a Redhawk doesn't mean it is indestructible, just that when it DOES go, your going to likely ruin it, not to mention what it might do to you or someone nearby.

One thing about shooting cast is they do not preform over as broad a range of loads as a jacketed bullet does. The loads have to be tailored around the bullets. While it helps to use the slower, "cooler" powders for some of the softer alloys it also helps when using plain based bullets as well. It is all a balancing act with the pressure and alloy. If your fit is good, and your pressures do not exceed the threshold of the alloy to absorb the initial slap on the rear, then you usually get pretty decent accuracy. Even faster powders can be used to good effect, but your not likely to get up into the upper ranges of the velocity window with them. They are fine for light target loads however.

You might get loads that lead up the barrel with a particular powder using a lighter load, but bump it up just a touch, withing the recommended data, and things come together nicely. The only way to find out is try it in your revolver.

 

[Wildfire]

41 Mag said it about as well as it can be said.

 

[IlikeSA]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I went back and measured my groups:
Miwall 158 grain TMJ: 1.72 inches
15 grains of Lil Gun and 180 XTP: 2.8 and 2.32
14 grains of 2400 and a 158 LSWC: 4.8 inches
19 grains of Lil Gun under a 158 LSWC: 4.6 inches
17 grains of Lil Gun under a 158 LSWC: 6.9 inches

I am going to slow down on the velocity and see if that improves the accuracy. Beartooth bullets tech corner seems to say that 1250 FPS is just about right with the correct bullet and weight.

 

[Wildfire]

Sounds like a plan.
I have never seen 158s group well over that 1250 mark.