After some AK quality time, I still prefer my M1 Carbine

[Corn-Picker]

This is why I'd like to see a new design in .30 Carbine (and probably 5.7x28mm as well), perhaps something along the lines of the Kel-Tec SU-16, Ares SCR or a basic Saiga. I don't mean just chambering one of those in .30 Carbine, which negates the advantage of the smaller cartridge, I mean a modern polymer and metal gun designed around the cartridge. That certainly should not cost $900.

With regard to the 5.7x28, what you're describing sounds exactly like the p90/ps90. That weapon was designed specifically for the 5.7x28 round. The ps90 is 26" in overall length and weighs 6.6 pounds when loaded with 50 rounds -- hard to get much lighter/smaller than that.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Dad has what he calls a "Universal" carbine that if it and an AR or AK were the only choices I would take the carbine in a heartbeat. For want of a better explanation it just "feels" more natural.

 

[MCgunner]

There used to be a complany that advertised caliber conversions to magnum revolver type rounds for the M1 Carbine. I think one converted to 10mm would be pretty useful. Not sure how it would handle rimmed revolver rounds.

 

[illinoisburt]

My afternoon at the range just confirmed my wish to see someone come out with a new, lightweight carbine in the spirit of the M1 (not a replica) chambered in .30 Carbine and maybe 5.7x28mm. The classic 18-inch barrel M1 Carbine weighed 5.8 lb (2.6 kg) loaded with a 15 round magazine a sling. Using modern materials and technology, perhaps a polymer receiver with steel rails, it ought to be possible to get a new carbine with 16-inch barrel and a 10-round magazine down to 4.4 lb (2 kg) loaded. That's less than a Ruger 10/22 and exactly half the weight of the loaded AK!

Sounds like you should try out a PCC (pistol caliber carbine). They are light, handy, and easy to get on target. However outside the low cost hi-point, they generally run as much as any AR or AK so most folks seem to overlook them in favor of rifles.

 

[phil dirt]

Quote:
"From the bench a decent M1 Carbine will shoot 6" or less at 200 yards, all day long."

"Is that good or bad?"

I can shoot better with the Carbine than with an AK. You aren't going to win any Camp Perry matches with that kind of accuracy, but for it's intended purpose, which was to arm non combatants, NCOs and officers with a light weight, self defense weapon, I think it's pretty good. I know that it's more accurate than I am. That said, I wouldn't want somebody to be shooting at me with an M1 Carbine at 200 yards, since it's not difficult to hit man sized targets out to 275/300 yards.

 

[cluttonfred]

Sounds like you should try out a PCC (pistol caliber carbine). They are light, handy, and easy to get on target. However outside the low cost hi-point, they generally run as much as any AR or AK so most folks seem to overlook them in favor of rifles.

If by PCC you mean a .357 Magnum lever gun, then it does come quite close quite close to the M1 Carbine in practice. The Chuckhawks.com site lists the ballistics like so:

Cartridge (Wb@MV) Bullet BC 100 yds. 200 yds. MRT@yds. MPBR (yds.)
.30 Carbine (110 RN at 1990) .144 +2.8" -8.2" 3"@85 171
.357 Mag. (158 FP at 1830) .158 +2.7" -10.5" 3"@85 163
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 FP at 1760) .165 +2.6" -11.6" 3"@75 159

I don't have the ballistics for auto pistol calibers handy, but my understanding is that even 9mm +P will be inferior to the .30 Carbine in terms of both the trajectory and energy. Ballistics by the Inch puts a Cor-Bon 9mm +P 115gr JHP at 1543 fps and the 90 grain at 1754 fps from an 18" barrel. The larger-caliber auto-pistol rounds will have much shorter MPBR than the .30 Carbine.

 

[illinoisburt]

a private citizen or ordinary police officer (not SWAT) would be better off with an M1 Carbine in most likely situations (home defense, civil unrest, police patrol, etc.) and ranges (under 100m and usually much less).

When you are talking short ranges, especially at home where 25 yards would be pushing legitimate self defense limits in most situations, then yes those pistol caliber carbines (9mm, 40, 45) make a lot of sense. The moment you start stretching ranges to even 100 yards or further it is highly unlikely to have anything to do with self defense except in appocolyptic scenarios. Should that ever come about you would want first and foremost to leave the area. If a fight was required, go with a real rifle not a half measure.

 

[illinoisburt]

As a follow-on thought to your original post, my grandfather (RIP) was an MP at a POW camp in Oklahoma for German POWs captured in Africa. He was always quite fond of the folding stock carbine that replaced the pistol he was originally issued and hated (small stature + small hands + 1911 was not good for him). For that kind of situation the M1 carbine made perfect sense and in many ways still does. Compact, easy to carry, easy to shoot and in a situation where you might need to reach out distance it could be pressed into service. Much the same could certainly still apply today. For the short ranges involved with personal defense likely to be encountered by civilians you are absolutely correct that AK's/AR's and other intermediate rifle calibers are overpowered.
That is a role where an updated M1 carbine could shine. However we would probably be just as well, if not better, served by existing modern PCC's that are shorter and lighter with better ergonomics, less recoil, and much more readily available ammunition choices. When we start into stretching the range outside 25-50 yards then we are honestly dealing with a situation that calls for re-evaluating our involvement in the first place, and using a better tool in the form of a rifle if no option of retreat or disengagement is possible.

 

[MCgunner]

Nothing with a pistol grip has "better ergonomics" than the M1 Carbine, IMHO. Pistol grips belong on pistols.

JMHO I'm probably wrong when it comes to shooting humans, never shot one. But I'm more of a fudd, been told I was right here on this board, anyway.

 

[cluttonfred]

As we've been talking about M1 Carbine effectiveness, here are some useful numbers from the Hornady ballistics calculator to see what .30 Carbine can do with a modern bullet, in this case the Hornady 110 gr FTX Critical Defense round. Note the trajectory rise and fall and wind drift which show that the .30 carbine is quite usuable (minute-of-bad-guy standards) up to a maximum of 200 yards, but beyond that you're really lobbing them in.

While energy is not the only factor, it's interesting to note that the .30 Carbine really is neither fish nor fowl, neither a handgun round nor a true rifle round. At the muzzle it's substantially weaker than almost any true rifle round other than some small varmint catridges and small game rounds with black powder roots like .32-20 and 25-20, which were also used in pistols. And it's actually weaker than a .357 Magnum from an equivalent length barrel.

That said, at the muzzle the .30 Carbine is carrying more energy than any but the most exotic pistol or SMG. At 50 yards it's still got the energy of a .44 Magnum revolver at point blank range. Even out at 200 yards it's got the energy, velocity and almost the same bullet weight as a 9mm +P 115 gr JHP frpm a pistol at point blank range. I guess the Army Ordnance folks that set the requirements and the Winchester folks that developed the cartridge really did know a thing or two. With the right bullet, .30 does seem like a great solution for that middle ground where you want more range than a pistol or SMG but no more than that.

 

[chris in va]

I suspect the KelTec SU-16 was created for those that like the M1 carbine but want it in 5.56. It's certainly lighter than the Mini.

I personally don't care for a pistol grip on my AR, just wish the SU had better accuracy...and wood.

 

[cluttonfred]

That sounds like a Mini-14. ;-)

 

[Swampman]

Try a VZ58, it's the "Commie Carbine"!