An article on weapon tracing in Mexico

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tyrannosaurus

Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
94
Location
Texas
There are two statements in this article that do not match up at all:

1. About a third of the guns submitted for tracing in 2007 were sold by licensed U.S. dealers.

2. Most of the guns traced were originally sold by U.S. dealers in border states, with more than half purchased in Texas. Not only does Texas have the most gun dealers of any state, it makes up 1,200 miles of the 2,100-mile U.S.-Mexico border, with many of the established drug and trafficking routes.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090506/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_drug_war_weapons

MEXICO CITY – Deep inside a heavily guarded military warehouse, the evidence of Mexico's war on drug cartels is stacked two stories high: tens of thousands of seized weapons, from handguns and rifles to AK-47s, some with gun sights carved into the shape of a rooster or a horse's head.

The vault nestled in a Mexican military base is the government's largest stash of weapons — some 88,537 of them — seized from brutal drug gangs. The Associated Press was recently given rare and exclusive access to the secure facility.

The sheer size of the cache attests to the seemingly hopeless task of ever sorting and tracing the guns, possibly to trafficking rings that deliver weapons to Mexico. And security designed to keep the guns from getting back on the streets is so tight that even investigators have trouble getting the access they need.

The warehouse — on a main drag in northeastern Mexico City near the horse racing track — is surrounded by five rings of security. There are two military guards at the door and five more are in the lobby. Inside, another 10 soldiers sort, clean and catalog weapons. Some are dismantled and destroyed, a few assigned to the Mexican military.

The guns are stacked to the two-story ceiling in a warehouse the size of a small Wal-Mart. The rifles lie on 22 metal racks; the pistols hang from metal poles by their triggers.

The cavernous warehouse is impeccably clean, the only smell coming from the coffee the soldiers prepared for their rare visitors. The clash of metal and sounds of the soldiers at work echo off the walls.

The security, bolstered by closed-circuit cameras and motion detectors, makes the warehouse practically impenetrable, said Gen. Antonio Erasto Monsivais, who oversees the armory.

In all, the military has 305,424 confiscated weapons locked in vaults, just a fraction of those used by criminals in Mexico, where an offensive by drug cartels against the military has killed more than 10,750 people since December 2006. But each weapon is a clue to how the cartels are getting arms, and possibly to the traffickers that brought them here.

The U.S. has acknowledged that many of the rifles, handguns and ammunition used by the cartels come from its side of the border. Mexican gun laws are strict, especially compared to those in most U.S. border states.

The Mexican government has handed over information to U.S. authorities to trace 12,073 weapons seized in 2008 crimes — particularly on guns from large seizures or notorious crimes.

But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which handles the U.S. investigations, is at the mercy of local Mexican police for the amount and quality of the information.

"Many of these rural municipalities that may come into a gun seizure ... may not even know anything about tracing guns," ATF spokesman Thomas Mangan said.

A police officer in Mexico submits a description, serial number and distinctive markings of the gun. The weapons are then turned over to the military for storage in one of a dozen armories such as the one in Mexico City.

When U.S. investigators need additional details, as they often do, the request goes back to the original police officer, who must retrieve the gun from a military vault — sometimes hundreds of miles away.

Mexican police must ask permission each time they need to look at a stored gun, Monsivais said. Even if that permission is granted, the investigator cannot go past the metal fencing separating a reception desk and the shelves holding the guns. A soldier has to bring out the requested weapons.

The security, language differences and bureaucracy add up to a painstaking process, said J. Dewey Webb, special agent in charge of the ATF's Houston Field Division.

"The military does a very good job when the weapons come into their custody of securing them," he told the AP. "Because of the systems in Mexico, it's very difficult for us to get in."

Webb said recent talks between the two countries were beginning to ease access, but also noted other problems.

Many mistakes are made because of difficulty translating technical terms about firearms, Webb said. A Spanish-language version of eTrace, the Web-based method of submitting tracing information, won't be available until next year.

About a third of the guns submitted for tracing in 2007 were sold by licensed U.S. dealers.

U.S. agents need the information to track the gun back to the manufacturer and determine when it was made and what wholesaler it was shipped to, ATF spokeswoman Franceska Perot said. Agents follow the gun to the local licensed dealer who sold it and determine the buyer.

ATF offices around the U.S. are swamped with tracing requests, trying to determine who actually bought the weapons and whether they were part of a firearms trafficking scheme. The ATF has sent an extra 100 agents to Houston to help unclog the 700-weapon backlog as part of its Project Gunrunner.

The seized weapons are kept in the vaults as long as they are needed as evidence, Monsivais said. Most have been there for years, an indication of how slow criminal investigations proceed and how few crimes are ever solved.

Indeed, the ATF gave the AP data showing the average "time to crime" — the time between when a gun was sold and when it was seized in a crime — is 14 years.

That's an average of four years longer than guns in American crimes, the ATF said. The older the street age, the harder it can be to track how the gun wound up at a crime scene.

When the criminal investigations are complete, most of the weapons are destroyed and melted down. Some of the more powerful arms, such as M16 machine guns and sniper rifles, are added to the military's own arsenal. Showpieces are destined for museums.

Most of the guns traced were originally sold by U.S. dealers in border states, with more than half purchased in Texas. Not only does Texas have the most gun dealers of any state, it makes up 1,200 miles of the 2,100-mile U.S.-Mexico border, with many of the established drug and trafficking routes.

Details on the 2008 tracing requests are not yet available.

It's less clear how cartels are getting military-grade weapons. Amid the shelves of pistols and rifles, there is a 9 mm grenade launcher and a portable shoulder-fired anti-tank rocket launcher.

Such military-grade weaponry represents a tiny fraction of the seized weapons. But Monsivais said he's most worried about the rising caliber of assault rifles and semi-automatic guns that have been found.

"There are weapons that have a lot of firepower and great penetration, like the .50-caliber Barrett ... which can penetrate armored vehicles, body armor, and that normally only militaries use," Monsivais said.

Thirty percent of AK-47 assault rifles seized have been modified to become fully automatic. He said about three of every 1,000 AR-15 assault rifles have been modified to take .50-caliber bullets, the kind of high-powered ammunition designed for sniper rifles.

"In my experience, I had never seen a modified AR-15 rifle," Monsivais said. "It's something new, and it is to a certain extent worrisome that they can have and use this type of weapon."

___

Roberts reported from San Antonio. Associated Press writers Alexandra Olson in Mexico City and Juan A. Lozano in Houston contributed to this story.
 
Want to remember they "fessed up" (in a very quiet voice not near any media much) that the 90% number only ever referred to weapons with identifiable US markings.

I do not remember if (AT)FE ever claimed what percentage of siezed weapons had such markings.
 
Where to begin?


.....The sheer size of the cache attests to the seemingly hopeless task of ever sorting and tracing the guns, possibly to trafficking rings that deliver weapons to Mexico...

Surprisngly 89,000 guns is not really that many. We are talking 1 gun for 12 soldiers in the Mexican Army. Certainly not a hopeless task if they were serious about it.

....And security designed to keep the guns from getting back on the streets is so tight that even investigators have trouble getting the access they need.......

A corruption problem in Mexico will be really hard to solve from America.
rity, bolstered by closed-circuit cameras and motion detectors, makes the warehouse practically impenetrable, said Gen. Antonio Erasto Monsivais, who oversees the armory.

.......In all, the military has 305,424 confiscated weapons locked in vaults, just a fraction of those used by criminals in Mexico, where an offensive by drug cartels against the military has killed more than 10,750 people since December 2006......

This is a very confusing statement. 300,000+ guns used to kill less than 11,000 people are a tiny fraction?

.....The U.S. has acknowledged that many of the rifles, handguns and ammunition used by the cartels come from its side of the border....

If by the "US" they mean gun banning politicians then yes.

.....But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which handles the U.S. investigations, is at the mercy of local Mexican police for the amount and quality of the information......

Again why is the US trying to solve the unsolvable problem of Mexican corruption?

......ATF offices around the U.S. are swamped with tracing requests, trying to determine who actually bought the weapons and whether they were part of a firearms trafficking scheme. The ATF has sent an extra 100 agents to Houston to help unclog the 700-weapon backlog as part of its Project Gunrunner.....

100 Agents can't trace 700 weapons? Wow. I want my tax money back.

....The seized weapons are kept in the vaults as long as they are needed as evidence, Monsivais said. Most have been there for years, an indication of how slow criminal investigations proceed and how few crimes are ever solved.....

The UN Commission on Human Rights found in 2000 that less than 1 in 1000 criminals are caught and go to jail. I don't think that gun tracing has much to do with it. In fact the UN did not even mention it.

.....When the criminal investigations are complete, most of the weapons are destroyed and melted down. Some of the more powerful arms, such as M16 machine guns and sniper rifles, are added to the military's own arsenal. Showpieces are destined for museums.....

...and many are sold back to the gangs.

....He said about three of every 1,000 AR-15 assault rifles have been modified to take .50-caliber bullets, the kind of high-powered ammunition designed for sniper rifles.....

I want to see a "modified" AR-15 that shoots a .50BMG round. Anybody have a pic?
 
About a third of the guns submitted for tracing in 2007 were sold by licensed U.S. dealers.

How many was that? The 700?

Let's get really factual here. It takes a $200 permit to actually own any full auto weapon in the U.S., if the state allows it. The permit process is fully owned by the BATF, and nothing happens without their approval. They can trace any serial numbered full auto back to the last U.S. owner. As for semi-autos, those are also traceable thru maker and gun store records to the purchasing owner.

In 1986 a gun law was passed stopping the sale of all new full auto weapons to the general public. Prices have now soared to the tens of thousands of dollars for Thompsons; M16's and the like are expensive toys of the well to do. Joe Sixpack can barely afford the ticket to a range shoot, much less the ammo.

All the weapons shown in video and still photos - if they are full auto - are completely traceable to a U.S. citizen. American made full autos are also completely traceable thru BATF records to the maker.

The problem is that the US Government has provided MOST of the full auto weapons to Central American and Mexico as military aid. What others show up are usually sourced from military arms dealers with certificates of import.

700 agents and offices "swamped" with trace requests should be able to show a detailed transfer from maker to dealer to owner with no problem. A knock on the door would clear up any other facts. With full autos, the last registered owner better come up with the hard goods - or the BATF isn't doing their job.

Show me the thousands of arrested citizens sitting in jail awaiting prosecution - or start asking the press where they are. Put the heat on the reporter to do their job and stop copying press releases from a government - US or Mexican - who are obviously not doing the job and covering their butt.

Remember - THEY wanted gun registration and got it with full autos. Now, they should answer for where they are.
 
The warehouse — on a main drag in northeastern Mexico City near the horse racing track — is surrounded by five rings of security. There are two military guards at the door and five more are in the lobby. Inside, another 10 soldiers sort, clean and catalog weapons. Some are dismantled and destroyed, a few assigned to the Mexican military.

Let's see now, that makes a total of 7 possibly armed members of the Mexican Army guarding 88,000+ guns at a warehouse on the main drag next to the horse racing track? What are the chances that they are not supervising the 10 privates who are cleaning the guns up for resale out the back door to drug cartel buyers? Zero?

Mexican authorities can't get access to the guns...because they have already been sold, most likely.

It seems we have about as good a chance of curing Mexican Army corruption from the US as we do of stopping gun crime in the US by disarming law-abiding citizens. How's that working out, Australia?
 
Lecture: A World Drowning in Guns

by Harold Hongju Koh

(Professor of International Law, Yale Law School,
Assitant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, 1998-2001)

71 Fordham Law Review 2333 (2003)

....Guns that are sold legally often wind up in illegal hands. Their fungibilty, their portability, their small size, and their widespread availability makes them an alternate black-market global currency for transnational terrorists. Small arms can be bartered for food, livestock, smuggled money, even diamonds. Large shipments can pass undetected across national borders and travel huge distances. In 1997, for example, American agents intercepted an arms shipment of M-2 automatic rifles that had been left in Vietnam by American forces; over a period of twenty years, the agents determined, those rifles had traveled from Ho Chi Minh City to Singapore; to Bremerhaven, Germany; to Long Beach, California; and then to Mexico, where they were finally intercepted. (see Lora Lumpe, The U.S. Arms Both Sides of Mexico's Drug War, 61 Covert Action Q., 39, 39-46 (Summer 1997) available at http://www.fas.org/asmp/library/articles/us-mexico.htm; see also Anne-Marie O'Conner & Jeff Leeds, U.S. Agents Seize Smuggled Arms, L.A.Times. Mar. 15, 1997, at 19. The intercepted shipments contained what were "obviously weapons of war." Id.)
The antigunners like to dismiss the Fox News article by Maxim Lott, but the above was published in 2003 by a guy on the same political side as Rebecca Peters of IANSA, citing what was going on in the drug war 1997 that continues on today. The mainstream media just recently discovered the Mexican Drug War, and of course, it's all our fault and the cure is more gun control on legal civilian sales in the U.S.

Soldier of Fortune magazine had an article in that same time frame (1997) about U.S. Customs seizing a shipping container in San Diego, California, labeled "sewing machine parts" that contained U.S. Viet Nam War era Carbines M2 (select fire rifles) and grenade launchers of Vietnamese origin. I seriously doubt if there was any ATF import papers or 4473s on those "sewing machine parts".

There is a crisis of international black marketeers bartering drugs and guns across international borders. It should be obvious that the sources of the full automatic weapons and grenade launchers in Mexico are not Walmarts in Texas or gun shows in Arizona, but don't expect politicians not to use fear and panic over the illegal international weapon traffick to further their goal of outlawing legal guns. The weapons of war in the black market come from militaries and governments, not from hunters and gun collectors.

80% of the guns siezed in Mexico are not of U.S. origin. Of the 20% that are U.S. origin, 90% do trace to U.S. sources, but that is 90% of 20% or about 18% of the total. What is not mentioned is the U.S. sources are often U.S. government transfers to Mexican military or police diverted to the drug cartels.
 
"In my experience, I had never seen a modified AR-15 rifle," Monsivais said. "It's something new, and it is to a certain extent worrisome that they can have and use this type of weapon."


:confused: never seen a modified ar?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top