are AD's really 100% preventable?
- Thread starter Eric F
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AD and ND events are matters of statistical probability. You can redue the occurance rate to neglible levels which are for all intensive purposes approaching zero, but a small chance will always exist.
That being said, I am calling BS on static electricity causing a AD in a cartridge revolver. Cartridges are, for all practical purposes, sealed metal canisters. Unless the clearance between bullet and case wall were too wide so as to leave a gap, there would be no path for the static discharge to get to the propelant or primer. Electricity travels on the exterior of a conductive body, not the interior. In addition to this, gunpowder is a poor conductor of electricity, so the static electricity would not arc through the powder, instead traveling along the case wall.
In addition to this, I don't believe that static discharge could generate enough heat to set off powder.
I would instead suggest that the owners loads were too hot, resulting in overpressure which caused failure of the cyclinder possibly breaching the other rounds. The cause of the AD, probably the aforementioned boogerhook/bang-switch interaction.
That being said, I am calling BS on static electricity causing a AD in a cartridge revolver. Cartridges are, for all practical purposes, sealed metal canisters. Unless the clearance between bullet and case wall were too wide so as to leave a gap, there would be no path for the static discharge to get to the propelant or primer. Electricity travels on the exterior of a conductive body, not the interior. In addition to this, gunpowder is a poor conductor of electricity, so the static electricity would not arc through the powder, instead traveling along the case wall.
In addition to this, I don't believe that static discharge could generate enough heat to set off powder.
I would instead suggest that the owners loads were too hot, resulting in overpressure which caused failure of the cyclinder possibly breaching the other rounds. The cause of the AD, probably the aforementioned boogerhook/bang-switch interaction.
El Tejon
Member
Violating the Four Rules is negligence, not accident.
scout26
Member
If you follow the Four Rules, you can have an AD/ND and no-one gets hurt.
I've had AD's.
While in the Army, I've run ranges that have had runaway guns (M60's mostly). I had a .22 target pistol that when I first purhsed it (used) I carefully cleaned and reassembled it. First time at the range it would go full-auto on occasion (due to a worn sear). Immediately taken to a gunsmith and sear replaced. No injuries ever since the Four Rules were followed in all instances.
That's the glory of the Four Rules. You only have to be a "C" student (3 out of 4 rules followed or 75% right) and no-one gets hurt. Violate two or more rules and the chances of someone getting hurt goes up dramatically.
I've had AD's.
While in the Army, I've run ranges that have had runaway guns (M60's mostly). I had a .22 target pistol that when I first purhsed it (used) I carefully cleaned and reassembled it. First time at the range it would go full-auto on occasion (due to a worn sear). Immediately taken to a gunsmith and sear replaced. No injuries ever since the Four Rules were followed in all instances.
That's the glory of the Four Rules. You only have to be a "C" student (3 out of 4 rules followed or 75% right) and no-one gets hurt. Violate two or more rules and the chances of someone getting hurt goes up dramatically.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Eric,
Firearms are used by human beings and human beings are doomed to the occasional mistake. Unfortunately in the case of firearms those mistakes are generally contempt due to familiarity and arrogant carelessness.
(For those of you that can't see it this is applied sarcasm.)
Selena
Firearms are used by human beings and human beings are doomed to the occasional mistake. Unfortunately in the case of firearms those mistakes are generally contempt due to familiarity and arrogant carelessness.
(For those of you that can't see it this is applied sarcasm.)
Selena
possum
Member
in weapons such as the m240b they can occur without any fault to the operator i have seen it done. but other weapons such as handguns, rifles etc. i think that they all classify as nd's and i would would classify a 240b for example as ad as it ws an accident ad not at the fault of the operator, he didn't want the rd to go off, and it did so accidently.
I doubt the police department is an expert in static electricity. I am not an expert either, but I think it is unlikely that static discharge would cause a primer to discharge. There is maybe a slightly higher chance it caused a powder charge to ignite. It would seem the chance of it setting off three rounds simultaneously is close to nil.
The following is not a dig at fire departments!!!
A large number of fires are classified each year by fire departments and fire investigators as electrical in nature. A fair number of these conclusions are very dubious, as determined by real experts in the electrical field. The point is that just because someone in an official capacity makes a conclusion does not make it so.
gbran
Member
All AD's and ND's are SD's (surprise discharges).
Millwright
Member
As related, I have a hard time believing a static discharge causing an AD in a cartridge arm,period, let alone a revolver. To get a 'spark ignition' you have to have dissimilar electrical potentials. How do you get that in a primer where the anvil is against the priming compound and the anvil and cap are in contact ? Even tougher to belive a 'spark jump' twixt cartridge and power....plus multiple times ?
If the arm in question was BP and sloppily loaded, ( see ND) a static spark could possibly cause a chain fire if stray powder on the cylinder face ignited, but that's, IMO, a stretch..... >MW
If the arm in question was BP and sloppily loaded, ( see ND) a static spark could possibly cause a chain fire if stray powder on the cylinder face ignited, but that's, IMO, a stretch..... >MW
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Millwright,
It's been a long time since I had anything to do with electrostatics but wouldn't a cartridge act as a Faraday cage?
Selena
It's been a long time since I had anything to do with electrostatics but wouldn't a cartridge act as a Faraday cage?
Selena
Feanaro
Member
If God should reach down from the Golden Throne, down through the gaping sky, and give yer primer a hard thump(it having already been established by Pope Fictious X in 1237 that He can knock on even the smallest objects through other objects without disturbing them), you can't help that. If Gremlins should eat up some parts, that's not your fault.
But barring acts of God and mechanical failure, NDs are 100% human error and 100% preventable.
But barring acts of God and mechanical failure, NDs are 100% human error and 100% preventable.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Grey54956 said,
Ditto. People come up with all kinds of hokey "explanations" to explain the bang and hole.
And three cartridges discharged?
Nah.
Lemme see the Police Report.
If any.
Probably made up by a Hollywood screenwriter.
Ditto. People come up with all kinds of hokey "explanations" to explain the bang and hole.
And three cartridges discharged?
Nah.
Lemme see the Police Report.
If any.
Probably made up by a Hollywood screenwriter.
gunsmith
member
if you have a cheap gun, no
I had a cheapo loaded derringer that wasn't cocked and had the safety on go off when A truck drove by, the vibrations shook a table and it fell on the floor.
The shot narrowly missed the cat, I unloaded it and got rid of it.
I had a cheapo loaded derringer that wasn't cocked and had the safety on go off when A truck drove by, the vibrations shook a table and it fell on the floor.
The shot narrowly missed the cat, I unloaded it and got rid of it.
1911 guy
Member
Freak accidents will happen. Mechanical malfunctions will happen. The vast majority of "BANG...Oops!" is because of stupidity, ignorance or negligence. Those are preventable.
CNYCacher
Member
Don't want to offend the OP, but I don't believe the static electricity discharge story.
Static shocks are scary and annoying when they happen, but the worst static shock you ever got in your life if still a minuscule amount of energy.
An electrical burn from the static shock of rubbing your feet on a carpet?
What are we hypothesizing here, that the electrical discharge from the person's body to a metal shelf was so great that it instantly heated the gun up to the point that three rounds cooked off simultaneously? Did this guy rub his feet on a carpet or did he get hit by lightning?
Did. Not. Happen.
Static shocks are scary and annoying when they happen, but the worst static shock you ever got in your life if still a minuscule amount of energy.
An electrical burn from the static shock of rubbing your feet on a carpet?
What are we hypothesizing here, that the electrical discharge from the person's body to a metal shelf was so great that it instantly heated the gun up to the point that three rounds cooked off simultaneously? Did this guy rub his feet on a carpet or did he get hit by lightning?
Did. Not. Happen.
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