Are all steel handguns passe?

[19&41]

I wonder how many people would have imagined before the interest took hold that an entire industry would have been established to manufacture reproduction blackpowder firearms. It is impossible to predict what will attract the interest of future shooters, nor to guess at what might spur that interest. But if there is a firearm industry, they will supply whatever the shooters fancy dictates, as that is where is the money is. Some movie cop with a fondness for metal frame pistols might reverse the turn to polymer. Whatever it has been called over the years, the "coolness factor" always holds sway, and can override practicality. I can remember a lot of .45's being shelved in the '80's in favor of the "wondernines". Now the tide turns again.

 

[jeepguy]

my first pistol was a xd .40 which was good. then sold that & i boughta alloy frame beretta 92fs, later a sig 226 .40, s&w 1911 5" pd, kimber pro carry .45, and for a backup carry a cz 82. now i want to sell my s&w 1911 & kimber pro carry 9mm and get a kimber pro carry .45 hd & cz 75 compact. i went the other way from polymer to alloy & finally to all steel. im not sure alloy will last forever but will still have a place in my stable along with some all steel pistols. i don't even look at polymer anymore, for me its steel without rails.

 

[S&W620]

Did you read the link? Polymer framed gun dropped 500 feet from an airplane going 100 mph.

I've destroyed enough guns for the PD to know that steel frame guns will fail under a 2 pound sledge. Poly guns will too.If you'll provide the steel and polymer framed guns, I'll do the hammer test.

But really, how likely are you to have your gun attacked by someone wielding a hammer just heavy enough to damage a poly framed gun, but not a steel gun?

The reality is that in durability tests that are measuring typical types of wear and tear, steel framed guns just can't keep up. Try and find one recent competition where an all steel auto bested its polymer competitors.

But that is not what this thread was meant to be about. It's more about buying trends. At one point, revolvers were the standard and auto were considered by the firearms cognoscenti to be not as reliable or desirable.

Now, revolver sales make up a small percentage of all handguns sold. The current trends seem to favor polymer framed guns as well, and gunmakers are reacting to this by offering more and more polymer framed guns. 'Plastic' guns is no longer synonymous with cheap and unreliable.

The question is have we reached the point where to the typical gun buyer is all steel now retro? Is this just a trend, or have all steel guns taken a permanent back seat to their polymer brethren in terms of sales?

I'd also be interested to know the age of the posters - at least generally. I'd be willing to bet that the all steel crowd mostly falls on the far side of 40.

Guntech, you made some nice points in your previous post about the trends of guns over time and such, but I'm gonna have to disagree with one point, the durability of steel guns vs plastic.

Your quote: "The reality is that in durability tests that are measuring typical types of wear and tear, steel framed guns just can't keep up. Try and find one recent competition where an all steel auto bested its polymer competitors."

I wouldn't necessarily say this is "besting" but the metal CZ P-01 is the only pistol I know of to have passed the NATO testing. Not an easy test either. I'm sure you are familiar with it, but if not, check it out. The CZ tested awfully well.

Also, as far as "testing", anyone or any company can throw a gun in a bucket of sand, mud, water, etc., but the 1911 has lasted for 100 years in actual military use being used to defend life and limb in the most extreme environments on earth. If there is one handgun in the history of the world that can be considered "durable" or "battle tested", the all steel 1911 would surely be it.

Lastly, as far as the age of "steel guys", I'll ask this; what is the average age of a guy who owns a Ferrari? How about a vacation home? Custom motorcycle? Private hunting land? While polymer may be nice, they are also generally cheaper. Cheaper products tend to equal more sales. I think once gun guys get to a point in their life where they can afford the "finer things in life", a nice 1911 is typically preferred to a poly pistol. Thankfully, until they get to that point, there are plenty of great polymer options

FWIW, I'm not even close to 40 yet and I only own steel guns. While I've enjoyed owning a few poly guns in the past, I like my guns to feel like guns, not my son's Supersoaker. This is of course just my opinion.

 

[Poohgyrr]

I prefer to carry what I do best with. That generally is a metal frame.

Instead of worrying about a few ounces of pistol, most of us would be better off losing a few pounds fom our guts. Hah, that seems like an ongoing battle for me. I like good food and have cut back, but still - five pounds off my gut beats one pound of pistol.

Besides, my family is worth one or two pounds of good pistol (plus gear).

I understand our troops can carry 60 to 160 pounds of gear into battle, in that 130+ degree heat. Guess they aren't so soft. While they fight the Islamic extremists over there, I guess I could stand by their families here - against our home grown thugs....

Some good things are done with polymer pistols. The metal pistols do as well as they always have. And it is a good thing each of us can choose how to spend our own money.

 

[Sunray]

"...all steel auto is going to become like the blued full sized revolver..." Have you seen the prices a vintage 1911 or Python command?

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

If poly is so wonderful why aren't slides and barrels made from it? On a serious note everything has it's place. Polymer frames are fine for taking out beating the snot out of it and forgetting about it until it's time for "work" again. Aside from the weight savings I prefer steel, and I'm even so picky as to prefer forged frames over cast frames. Steel frames don't stop at the 1911 either. There are plently of great weapons in mid-size to compact in steel.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I find it quite funny that the major complaint AGAINST RG and similar guns (alloy frames) is now a PLUS for other brands.

 

[Xfire68]

I never really liked "Poly" guns mostly because of the looks and later on after I had a chance to handle a few and fire a few how light they were. They just did not feel right in my hand.

I even passed on a CZ 75 SP01 Phantom because I thought is was way to light empty at the gun shop. My brother later bought one and I had a chance to shoot it and I love that gun! I own a all metal CZ 75B and still like it more the the Phantom but, the Phantom is a great shooting gun!

 

[smallbore]

No. And I don't believe they will ever be.

 

[GunTech]

S&W620

The Glock passed the NATO testing. The G17 was tested and assigned NATO Stock Number (1005/25/133/6775). In fact, when tested it surpassed all prior NATO durability standards - and still holds the record to date.

The CZ P-01 is rated for a frame life of 30,000 round of +P 9mm. There are many fully documented Glock with round counts over 150,000 rounds. The first well knonm Glock torture test was conducted by gun writer Chuck Taylor, a self described 1911 fan out to prove that the Glock was a plastic POS. The test pistol is now at almost 300,000 round as is the subject of an article to be publish in the Fen 2011 issue of Combat Handguns.

Finally, there are a large number of NATO tested and approved handguns, so the CZ marketing copy doesn't mean as much as people think.

 

[Casefull]

All mass produced firearms have steel barrels. Most slides are steel or full of steel parts wherever stress and large forces are concentrated. The fasteners are steel. Polymers do not have the density needed for many parts in firearms. We still have steel guns...just some of the low stress parts are made of plastic. Maybe the flexibility of the poly actually helps the pistol last longer by absorbing some of the shock of recoil. Plastic with metal tabs for slides on my glock, yuk, I know it works but seems weak and mickey mouse.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

No. And I don't believe they will ever be.

Really? I would like to hear your thoughts on small arms in say, the year 2411.

 

[jeepmor]

I know it works but seems weak and mickey mouse.

Round count is the ultimate decision maker. I've had a CCW 45 compact for many years now and probably put 5k thru it. It hiccuped a few range sessions back and has me wondering if I didn't keep it clean enough or needed to replace it.

On that note, I'm considering an all steel micro-compact 1911 for just the wear considerations noted.

That said, as an engineer by trade, nothing beats steel for wear in the pricepoints we are discussing.

 

[Fastcast]

That said, as an engineer by trade, nothing beats steel for wear in the pricepoints we are discussing.

Exactly.....and as others stated, if polymer was as tough as steel, they'd make the barrels and slides out of poly also but they don't for reason......HERE'S YOUR SIGN......But the plastic gurus will always have some poly pistol (link) in a bucket of mud, being dropped from a plane, sprayed with salt water, yada, yada, yada, trying to convince others plastic is stronger than steel.....LMAO

It may not deteriorate like steel, when abused but stronger?....Please.

 

[easyg]

but the 1911 has lasted for 100 years in actual military use being used to defend life and limb in the most extreme environments on earth. If there is one handgun in the history of the world that can be considered "durable" or "battle tested", the all steel 1911 would surely be it.

While there is a small grain of truth to this statement, remember this:

1) Very few soldiers ever carried the 1911 in battle. The typical grunt was never issued any handgun at all.
WWI was the last war where handguns made any significant difference at all.

2) The military spent millions of dollars and millions of man-hours maintaining those 1911 hanguns.
It's not that the 1911 is particularly durable, it's just that it was constantly cleaned, inspected, repaired, and serviced while in military service.

3) handguns in the military are actually fired very seldom....
During peacetime most 1911s seldom had more than 200 rounds shot per year.
And during times of war the 1911 still saw very few rounds fired.

I'm not a 1911 hater, but it never really made that big of a difference in warfare.

 

[easyg]

Plastic with metal tabs for slides on my glock, yuk, I know it works but seems weak and mickey mouse.

The very fact that it works so well should make it clear that an all steel frame with a full-length groove for the slide only offers unnecessary weight with no real gain in performance.

 

[LiveLife]

The military spent millions of dollars and millions of man-hours maintaining those 1911 hanguns. It's not that the 1911 is particularly durable, it's just that it was constantly cleaned, inspected, repaired, and serviced while in military service.

When I was in the service during early 80s, I was one of several designated to our unit's armory to maintain them. When we got new 1911s, they were very very rough! We were tasked to make them function reliably before they got issued to the officers. Each pistol was completely disassembled and cleaned, polished, function checked and lubed. We also function checked issued pistols and performed maintenance cleaning on a regular basis.

handguns in the military are actually fired very seldom....
During peacetime most 1911s seldom had more than 200 rounds shot per year. And during times of war the 1911 still saw very few rounds fired.

Issued pistols got shot for range qualifications. That was the extent of typical use pistols experienced in our unit.

 

[jad0110]

Do you steel lovers actually carry?

And by "carry" I don't mean throwing it in your glove box or strapping it on for a trip through the "bad areas." I mean eight hours minimum while doing everyday tasks.

4" Ruger Police Service Six, most days all day long. Probably weighs about 37 to 40 oz loaded. No problems whatsover. A good belt and holster makes the weight completely disappear. Barely know it's there. I also carry a 4" S&W Model 28 now and then (all day long when I do carry it). It probably weight 45 to 48 oz loaded. Again, no issues with the weight, but it is a physically large gun and I do have to dress around it.

Still, if one has back problems, weight can certainly be an issue. Plus, as another person said, preference is a huge factor as well. I personally don't care for the way polymer handguns feel in my hand. That flexing sensation just feels junky to me (no, Glocks and XDs aren't junk - the feel of them just doesn't do it for me); think slamming the door on a 1986 Chevy Crapalier.

I will say that having a lightweight, pocketable gun is nice for BUG duty, or for tooling around the house on a rainy Sunday.

Indeed, when I speak to younger shooters, they typically gravitate to polymer guns, complaining that all steel guns are too heavy.

Babies.

I'd like to see them hump 80 lbs of gear over rough terrain in 90+ degree heat for 12 miles.

 

[LiveLife]

I'd like to see them hump 80 lbs of gear over rough terrain in 90+ degree heat for 12 miles.

And try that while wearing a gas mask - fastest way to lose weight!