TITAN308
Member
As I am sure has been mentioned, the sale of any firearms that has one of the parties (seller or buyer) crossing state lines must be filtered through an FFL to be legal.
Dumb? Yes.
The law? Yes.
Dumb? Yes.
The law? Yes.
ATF regs are not clear to me: Need some help on a possible purchase.
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FIVETWOSEVEN
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As stated before, it's not illegal to sell a handgun to someone under 21 unless they are a minor on the Federal level. States may set different laws.
deadin
Member
Let's see.... I go to a gunshow in another State and buy a long gun from a resident of that State. I know that I am committing an illegal act per the statutes, so I am liable for prosecution. The Seller didn't ask, so they don't know that I am from a different State and thereby "should" be safe under the written law. The exact opposite is true should a non-resident come to a gunshow in my State and buy or sell a gun to me. He's liable, I'm not. (Maybe)
Just to be safe, I always ask for ID to make sure I don't have to explain all this to a judge.
Just to be safe, I always ask for ID to make sure I don't have to explain all this to a judge.
Shadow 7D
Member
ALWAYS read the law, the ATF has openly admitted that they have incorrect and misleading information
(that isn't technically wrong, just not a accurate or complete explanation of the applicable law)
So take it with a grain of salt, and understand that law is seen as a whole, not just the federal statute but also all the legal decisions, rulings and judgements (the precedents) based on that law.
(that isn't technically wrong, just not a accurate or complete explanation of the applicable law)
So take it with a grain of salt, and understand that law is seen as a whole, not just the federal statute but also all the legal decisions, rulings and judgements (the precedents) based on that law.
FROGO207
Member
Add to all that above that IF you have a legal ID that is issued by a government agency stating that you reside within a state (not necessarily full time) showing a physical address you are considered a resident of that state by the BATF also.
dogtown tom
Member
That is not exactly correct.
What address your "government issued photo identification" shows is not proof that you actually reside in the state that issued that ID.
Your "current residence address" and "state of residence" is what a buyer puts on his Form 4473 when buying a gun from a licensed dealer.
example 1: You are a US citizen living and working in London, England. While you may have a Texas drivers license showing an address in Texas.......you are not considered a resident of Texas because you are not living in Texas.
example 2: A college student whose family home is in Texas and has a TX Drivers License goes to college in Oklahoma. While he is living in Oklahoma and going to school he is an Oklahoma resident.......not a Texas resident.
oneounceload
member
Except when it comes to paying those college tuition fees - then he is still an out of state student - funny how that works
mgkdrgn
Member
Then the seller is stupid ... and yes, you can be arrested for doing something stupid. Happens every day.
You can only purchase, legally, FTF from residents of your home state. End of story.
FROGO207
Member
So you are saying that if I have a secondary residence in a second state that I stay at for some lengths of time (vacation home, yearly rental) and have a state or federal issued ID (I have a drivers license from primary state) showing that I reside (sometimes) at that location and currently do reside at that location, I do not qualify per BATF to buy a firearm in that state?? I do not agree with this.
NavyLCDR
member
So you are saying that if I have a secondary residence in a second state that I stay at for some lengths of time (vacation home, yearly rental) and have a state or federal issued ID (I have a drivers license from primary state) showing that I reside (sometimes) at that location and currently do reside at that location, I do not qualify per BATF to buy a firearm in that state?? I do not agree with this.
No FROGO, that is not what dogtown tom is saying. What dogtown tom is saying is that a state or federal issued ID showing that you reside (sometimes) at that location is NOT REQUIRED to establish residency there. A secondary government document that proves the current residence address can be used to prove residency, even though that document by itself does not prove identity.
I can present a driver's license from state X to prove my identity, and produce something like a hunting license, vehicle registration, or tax document to prove residency in state Y in order to purchase firearms in state Y during the time that I am physically living in state Y. It's right there in the instructions to the dealer on the form 4473.
deadin
Member
So, in your opinion the phrase "does not know or have a reasonable cause to believe" isn't worth the paper it's printed on??
A decent lawyer should be able to cast enough doubt to invoke the above piece of the law. (Nowhere does it require you ask for proof, but you're just a fool if you dont.)
FROGO207
Member
Gotcha I was reading it wrong I guess. Thanks for the clarification. I did this a time or two in the past and had whatever was needed so I was able to purchase but don't remember exactly what I did use that they asked for. FWIW they will not take just my DL as it only has a PO box on it and even after asking DMV they would not add my physical address to DL. So I just add my hunting license which has both.
I was reading it wrong I guess. Thanks for the clarification. I did this a time or two in the past and had whatever was needed so I was able to purchase but don't remember exactly what I did use that they asked for. FWIW they will not take just my DL as it only has a PO box on it and even after asking DMV they would not add my physical address to DL. So I just add my hunting license which has both.Owen Sparks
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If you don't ask and he does not tell then there is no illegal act because you did not "knowingly" sell to an out of state resident.
mgkdrgn
Member
And the difference between a "fool" and someone "stupid" is ...So, in your opinion the phrase "does not know or have a reasonable cause to believe" isn't worth the paper it's printed on??
A decent lawyer should be able to cast enough doubt to invoke the above piece of the law. (Nowhere does it require you ask for proof, but you're just a fool if you dont.)
Scimmia
Member
Unless the ATF determines that you should have known for some reason. "Reasonable cause to believe" leaves a lot of room for interpretation. They could argue that someone wanting to buy from a private seller instead of a dealer is enough reasonable cause that you should have questioned it. If you live anywhere near the border of your state, they could argue that you should be suspicious of any transaction because the other person could be from across the border.
All they have to do it think that you should have known for whatever reason, and you're gonna be up the proverbial creek. "Knowingly" has nothing to do with it.
Same place our RIGHTS have gone, especially our 2nd....................
deadin
Member
Stupid is dumb enough not to know any better. A fool is someone that thinks they're smarter than the system and can get away with "gaming" it.
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