Barrel Leading Question

[bluetopper]

youngda9, if your bullets are 18bhn you should be able to push them up to max spec pressure without leading. If they fit your bore good a 357 as well as a 44 Mag should not need jacketed bullets. I shoot my cast bullets at the max and have a nice shiney bore. I just don't have a problem with leading in anything I shoot, semi auto or revolver.

 

[evan price]

Basically, leading is caused by a mix of factors.

The lube- it needs to be right for the velocity and temperature of powder you choose. Too much lube- messy and smoky, too little lube- leading towards the muzzle.
The hard crayon-type lubes most commercial casters use is designed to stay on the bullet in shipping and handling and loading, and not get sticky. They are often too hard and melt at too high temperature to do the best job. The converse is the sticky, soft lubes often burn off into smoke especially with more and more shots and you run out of lube.

The bullet- Too small or too hard- leading near the chamber, or too soft- leading all through the barrel as it strips the rifling.

Hardness VS diameter VS velocity is a tricky one.

A softer bullet that is larger diameter will lead less than a harder bullet that is too small diameter UNLESS you push the bullet too fast and then softer bullets lead more.


I've seen most leading caused, in order of importance, by:
Too small diameter bullets
Too hard bullets
Poor lube quality
Too soft bullets.

To diagnose a leading problem- look down the barrel.

Leading at the chamber and not through the barrel is usually a problem with too hard an alloy or too small diameter, or too hard/high temp melting of lube. Gas checks can help here, because what happens is the burning powder scorches the base of the bullet and causes lead to burn off or push around the bullet and the barrel at the gap at the chamber. A better strategy is to find out what size your throat is and size .001" or .002" larger so you get a tight seal.

Leading at the muzzle is usually caused by the lube running out of lubricity as the bullet goes through the barrel. Too soft or too low a melting point lubes cause this especially with the "hot" fast powders like Red Dot, Clays, Titegroup, etc.

Leading that goes all the way through the barrel from front to back usually means too soft a bullet for velocity- the bullet is stripping the rifling. Gas checks won't help this. The bullet is not hard enough to withstand the trip through the barrel.

 

[bluetopper]

Just recently I was reading an article and I had never thought about this, is the aspect of the rifleing plays on the centrifical force of the lube being thrown out of the groove of the bullet on to the barrel as it passes down the bore forming a seal for the burning gases not to go around the bullet.
I thought it was interesting.

 

[kestak]

Greetings,

As said, leading is MOSTLY (if not all) caused by gas cutting the bullet.

Trial and errors is the key to find out the best powder/bullet/gun ratio to prevent leading. For example, I use 5.1 grains of Unique behind my 9mm hard cast bullets. I use 5.1 grains of #2 behind my 45ACP bullets. All my magnums loads are near full load H110 and none lead. Only the 500 S&W bullets uses gas checks.

I get some VERY bad leading in my M9A1 Steyr. All I tried did not work. That means I use only FMJ in this one... :banghead:

Thank you

 

[youngda9]

Thank you for all of the information, I really appreciate it. And a special thanks to jcwit for providing load data to give me a reasonable starting point to work from.

 

[Sidemeat]

Leading in my Springfield Mil-Spec 1911 used to be a BIG problem for me. Heavy leading after just 100 rounds. It sucked.

I tried vigorous scrubbing with copper bore brushes and various solvents and oils. I still had stubborn patches that wouldn't come off. I was about to give up and drop $40 on the Lewis Lead Remover. :banghead:

Then I took the advice on the forums here and started using a few strands of a "Chore Boy" copper kitchen scrubbing pad wrapped around a worn-out bore brush to clean my barrel. Use it dry, no solvent. A few passes and it's gone. No problemo. Looks like glitter is falling out of the barrel while you're using it. Clean as a whistle.

 

[Sport45]

Fitting the cast bullet to the cylinder throats is more important than fitting to the bore (groove diameter). If the throats are smaller than the groove diameter, which is not unheard-of with Ruger you will get leading no matter what bullet you use. You want a bullet that you can push through the cylinder throats without a lot of effort. Maybe .0005" interference. The throats can be reamed to .0005" larger than groove diameter to optimize the gun for cast shooting if needed. Then a bullet .001" larger than groove is a perfect match.

Then I took the advice on the forums here and started using a few strands of a "Chore Boy" copper kitchen scrubbing pad wrapped around a worn-out bore brush to clean my barrel. Use it dry, no solvent. A few passes and it's gone. No problemo. Looks like glitter is falling out of the barrel while you're using it. Clean as a whistle.

^^ Listen to this. Great advice and much less expensive than the Lewis (now Hoppes) Lead Remover.

5 specific questions and 3 people responding pointing me to their bullet selling sites...

They were trying to teach you to fish. You know, give a man a fish and he has a meal. Teach him to fish and he never goes hungry. Or something like that.

 

[LiveLife]

Heavy leading after just 100 rounds.

Sidemeat, were you able to identify what was causing the leading?

 

[Sidemeat]

Never did identify the cause.

Different loads, different bullet manufacturers, same result: leaded-up like the very devil.

The leading was along the full length, heavier near the chamber, leaving larger patches there. The barrel is smooth and shines like a mirror, probably the finest finish of any of the firearms that I own. When shooting clad bullets, there's no build-up of any kind on it, even after several hundred rounds.

The "Chore Boy" trick saved me. I just don't care if it leads-up now. That nasty, gray scum can slime my barrel 'til the cows come home. I just give it a few, quick passes with my worn-out brush and it's gone.

 

[azar]

Sidemeat,

I'm having the same problem with my Springfield XD9. I'm having issues of leading down the length of the barrel as well. I believe this is due to gas cutting when gases are escaping around the base of the bullet. I slugged my bore recently and it measured 0.3555" at it's widest. This is a bit larger than the nominal 9mm grove diameter, so for the next batch of bullets I plan to try a bullet sized to 0.357" instead of 0.356" to see if that solves it.

Have you slugged your bore to see if you are oversized and shooting a too small lead bullet? In the meantime, I need to find a local supermarket that carries Chore Boy or some other all copper scouring pad...

 

[243winxb]

357 magnum

Simple answer. Load 13.0gr Alliant 2400 with 158gr plain base lswc cast bullet (no gas check) .358" diameter. Your choice of primer. (i like mag.) Do not use a Lee FCD. lol

 

[earplug]

22 Long Rifle bullets

Think about the millions of 22LR. shot with little or no leading.
22LR. Bullets are fairly soft. There outside lubed heeled bullets and most shot at over 1200 FPS.
I have had very good results with fairly soft cast bullets, Undersize bullets cause more problems leading then slightly oversize.

 

[jcwit]

I cast with 2 Lyman ingots of range lead and 1 ingot of wheel weights. Gives a fairly soft alloy. I use my own mix of parafine, bees wax, auto wax, and alox for a lube. I get bright & shinney bores with no leading.

Personally I think the hard lead deal is way overrated.

 

[barhob]

around 1980 i started shooting lead.
i was told to purchase the ''Lewis Lead Remover''.
I did. Still have it and still use it.
the only place i know to find it is at ''Brownells''. $40 bucks for the kit.
Well worth the money. i encourgage all handgun lead shooters to own one.
buy extra brass patches for the caliber you shoot for the future use to clean your handgun barrels.
You can swab with all the liquid chemicals out there and it will not get the lead out like a brass patch.
(ok mr. brownell---send my $$ for the promo)

BEWARE THE FURY OF A PATIENT MAN. ---John Dryden

 

[Walkalong]

Personally I think the hard lead deal is way overrated.

Yep.

 

[ScratchnDent]

The worst leading I've ever experienced was with very hard commercial cast bullets. They were fine when pushed by full power 357 magnum loads, but leaded up the same barrel terribly when pushed by mild 38 special loads.

 

[earplug]

Pressure sealing

I have read that pressure causes the base of a lead bullet to expand and seal the bore. Term starts with a O but I can't spell it.
Much the same way as a bicycle air pump seal works under pressure.
So to hard a alloy won't seal under light pressure, and a undersize bullet won't have a chance.

 

[LiveLife]

Earplug, the term is obturation.

 

[LiveLife]

The leading was along the full length, heavier near the chamber, leaving larger patches there.

I'm having the same problem with my Springfield XD9. I'm having issues of leading down the length of the barrel as well.

Sidemeat and azar, I am curious about your leading problem. I get very minimal to no leading shooting the harder (24 BHN) lead bullets. However, I get no leading shooting Missouri Bullets in 18 BHN.

I am thinking the harder commercial lead bullets mentioned in previous posts maybe causing "gas cutting" since the harder lead alloy base is less able to "flatten" to seal against the inside of the barrel (obturation). My guess is that this may be the cause for the leading problem you have experienced.

azar, if this is the case, then a softer .356 bullet should work fine in your barrel as long as it obturates to your barrel. Before you try the .357 bullet, you can try the softer 18 BHN from MBC and see if it solves your leading problem. If you want, you can PM me and I can send you a sample of 125gr 18 BHN 9mm to test this out.

 

[Sidemeat]

I shot my 1911 Thursday. 100 rnd of FMJ and Clad Hollowpoint. Nothing in barrel (I looked). Then a single mag of LRN and voila!. . . a scum of lead and a couple of small patches starting. Beats anything I've ever seen. I've shot thousands or LRN out of my S&W J-frames with no problems, but my 1911 leads-up with any LRN I shoot. Fast, slow, any load, any bullet. I'm sure glad I found an easy way to get it out.

 

[azar]

bds,

I'm using the Missouri Bullet "SmallBall" (18 BHN) already. It's with that bullet that I get leading. I'm a bit below the max lead load, so I've made two batches of the next 0.1g increments to see if that helps the bullet properly obturate. Also, I've been using the Lee FCD to do a light crimp (mainly to remove the case flair) and I'm thinking maybe the FCD could be changing the size/shape of the lead projectile.

If neither of those two things work, I'm going to try a .357" sized bullet and perhaps see if Brad will do a 16 BHN batch (maybe even a combination of both). If that doesn't fix it, I'll just switch to Berry's, Rainer, or Montana Gold.

 

[LiveLife]

azar, just to satisfy my curiosity, I loaded some test rounds and went to the range this afternoon. I used Glock 27 with Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel and S&W M&P 40 fullsize pistols. BTW, I did not use the FCD for these loads (I usually don't use the FCD for my range/match loads as they test/chamber fine in my tightest barrels).

Just a side note, I have noticed Lone Wolf barrel lands/grooves are highly polished and shiny (right from the manufacturer), so I decided to test a less polished barrel - S&W M&P 40 fullsize (FYI, the barrel has five wider lands than the typical six lands for a semi-auto barrel).

For 40S&W, I intentionally used the harder 24 BHN 180gr lead bullets and loaded some light charge loads with longer OAL to minimize good ignition to aggrevate the "gas cutting" in addition to my normal practice range loads. On about 10 rounds, I even intentionally "tilted" the bullet during seating to force lead shaving around the case neck.

For 9mm, I used 18 BHN 125gr lead bullets and loaded some hotter charges with shorter OAL to push the bullet faster.

I loaded 100 rounds each caliber (yes, one benefit of Pro 1000 - I had all the rounds loaded within 30 minutes even with the caliber change) and checked the barrel after about 20 rounds of shooting.

Results:

9mm - No leading after my range/practice loads. No leading after "hotter" loads with even shorter OAL. I have noticed the usual black fouling along the grooves during cleaning the barrel after the shooting session. I let the Hoppes #9 solvent soak in the barrel (about 5-15 minutes) after I run my copper bore brush through the barrel several times and the fouling comes clean. I inspected the patch cloth (I use a piece of paper towel) and saw the usual very fine speckles of lead (fine like flour particles) among the black fouling residue.

40S&W - No leading after my range/practice loads. No leading after the "lighter" loads with even longer OAL. I have noticed the usual black fouling along the grooves and more fouling buildup near the chamber end of the barrel where rifling starts. Even after shooting the "tilted" bullet rounds with lead slivers around the case neck, no leading down the barrel. During cleaning, I only saw the usual fine speckles of lead as 9mm barrel cleaning.

azar, I hope this shed more light on your XD leading situation. BTW, how rough is the XD barrel?