Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
Also, can bullet weights greater than 110 grains be used?
Can .30 Carbine be loaded with pointed bullets?
- Thread starter Oleg Volk
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cslinger
Member
No answer for you but why would pointed bullets matter? Grain I could see due to the semi automatic action but what possible problem could a pointed bullet cause?
Just curious as to where your brain is taking this?
Cinlotsofpainbutondrugsslinger
Just curious as to where your brain is taking this?
Cinlotsofpainbutondrugsslinger
R.W.Dale
Member
OK in therory you COULD but if you did you would not be able to shoot them in a M1 carbine as the OAL would be far too long to fit in the magazine. Now if your shooting a firearm that allows for the added length, a TC handgun or rifle comes to mind. Well then use your imagination.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
My thinking is: seat them deeper for the same OAL, have a tumbling projectile. Want to improve terminal performance.
R.W.Dale
Member
I don't think it would work. If you seated a pointed bullet deep enough to fit in the mag the case mouth would probably be unsupported due to the fact that the beginning of the bullets ogive would be inside the case.
If inproving terminal preformance is your goal I reccomend the 90gr hornary XTP ,also I believe Cor-Bon is coming out with a load sporting barnes type bullet
If inproving terminal preformance is your goal I reccomend the 90gr hornary XTP ,also I believe Cor-Bon is coming out with a load sporting barnes type bullet
loadedround
Member
Krochus is correct. I tied this once with 110 gr spitzers and could not crimp because of the bullet ogive when seated to the proper length to fit the magagazine. It's a waste of time to even try it..
Known bullets include:
85 gr SIE RN, 100 gr Speer RN-SP, Speer 110 gr HP, 100 gr Speer RN-SP, 100 gr Speer RNFMJ, 110 gr HDY JRN, 100 gr HDY SJ, and 110 gr HDY RN.
I'm not currently aware of bullets >110 gr for M1 carbine.
If you load a round backwards, you might be able to acheive a metastable condition during flight which destabilizes once it hits something... ?
I'm thinking about just using the HP and SP ammo for now.
I'm gearing up to load a few thousand rounds, and you can bet that I'm going to be doing some experimentation. Cleaning, case prep, original bulk WC820 / WC820(n) vs canister powder, and bullet weight/design.
Topgunner
85 gr SIE RN, 100 gr Speer RN-SP, Speer 110 gr HP, 100 gr Speer RN-SP, 100 gr Speer RNFMJ, 110 gr HDY JRN, 100 gr HDY SJ, and 110 gr HDY RN.
I'm not currently aware of bullets >110 gr for M1 carbine.
If you load a round backwards, you might be able to acheive a metastable condition during flight which destabilizes once it hits something... ?
I'm thinking about just using the HP and SP ammo for now.
I'm gearing up to load a few thousand rounds, and you can bet that I'm going to be doing some experimentation. Cleaning, case prep, original bulk WC820 / WC820(n) vs canister powder, and bullet weight/design.
Topgunner
Outlaws
Member
I would be careful in how deep you seat the bullet. I am under the impression that if you seat it too deep you could alter the pressure characteristics to a potentially dangerous point.
Sunray
Member
My old Lyman book has data for 120, 123 and 130 grain cast bullets. I've never used them though.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
Pointed bullets? Yep.
My very first loading manual was one from Lyman/Ideal, printed sometime in the early 1960s, and gave loading data for bullets cast from their moulds. There were some fairly strange designs offered, too.
One was designed specifically for the .30 US Carbine, with a fairly short ogive which ended in a very sharply pointed tip. I don't recall if I read the explanation elsewhere, or simply deduced it, but it makes sense: The very narrow end reduced the area of contact, the amount of lead alloy touching the feed ramp, and lessened the "smear" deposited on the ramp.
I believe that pointy little bullet was of conventional weight for the .30 USC, in the 108 -- 112 gr weight. Remember, the carbine and its ammo was only recently released for non-military use back in that time, and people were still working out their loads for it. There was some thought that you could mess up your carbine by using nonconventional loads which did not exactly duplicate the pressure curve of military ball ammo. This is still a consideration today, but is not considered the HUGE matter it once was.
And an aside - - that particular bullet was favored by some trappers and fur hunters to lessen hide damage. The sharp pointed projectile loaded over a few grains of fast pistol or shotgun powder in .30-30, .300 Savage and the like did the job and obviated the need to carry a .22 for non-destructive finishing shots.
Best
Johnny
My very first loading manual was one from Lyman/Ideal, printed sometime in the early 1960s, and gave loading data for bullets cast from their moulds. There were some fairly strange designs offered, too.
One was designed specifically for the .30 US Carbine, with a fairly short ogive which ended in a very sharply pointed tip. I don't recall if I read the explanation elsewhere, or simply deduced it, but it makes sense: The very narrow end reduced the area of contact, the amount of lead alloy touching the feed ramp, and lessened the "smear" deposited on the ramp.
I believe that pointy little bullet was of conventional weight for the .30 USC, in the 108 -- 112 gr weight. Remember, the carbine and its ammo was only recently released for non-military use back in that time, and people were still working out their loads for it. There was some thought that you could mess up your carbine by using nonconventional loads which did not exactly duplicate the pressure curve of military ball ammo. This is still a consideration today, but is not considered the HUGE matter it once was.
And an aside - - that particular bullet was favored by some trappers and fur hunters to lessen hide damage. The sharp pointed projectile loaded over a few grains of fast pistol or shotgun powder in .30-30, .300 Savage and the like did the job and obviated the need to carry a .22 for non-destructive finishing shots.
Best
Johnny
Carl N. Brown
Member
This is like the "can pointed (spitzer) bullets be used in the .30-30?"
Rough answer is NO for magazine feed, BUT for single feed quite
frankly anything goes: I have loaded bullets for single shot use
in 30-30 that the unfired round could not be ejected due to overall
length, and definitely should not be loaded in the tube magzine.
IF you want to use pointed bullets in an M1 carbine as a single
shot, experiment within safety parameters (pressure).
-----------------------------------
edited to add:
Photos of proof cartridges for M1 carbine show what
appears to be about a 150gr spitzer bullet, longer
than the std m1 cartridge.
Rough answer is NO for magazine feed, BUT for single feed quite
frankly anything goes: I have loaded bullets for single shot use
in 30-30 that the unfired round could not be ejected due to overall
length, and definitely should not be loaded in the tube magzine.
IF you want to use pointed bullets in an M1 carbine as a single
shot, experiment within safety parameters (pressure).
-----------------------------------
edited to add:
Photos of proof cartridges for M1 carbine show what
appears to be about a 150gr spitzer bullet, longer
than the std m1 cartridge.
I seem to remember an 87grn spitzer that worked for .30 carbine, but I'll have to research it, haven't seen reference to it in years.
Oleg, have you tried the various 110SP's with exposed lead tips? The Federal load is quite good, and I'd hate to be on the receiving end of it.
Oleg, have you tried the various 110SP's with exposed lead tips? The Federal load is quite good, and I'd hate to be on the receiving end of it.
Oleg;
In terms of factory loads; the Remington and Winchester give the best ratio of expansion and penetration. One well controlled study showed the Wnchester HSP slightly superior and another well controlled study showed the Remington slightly superior.
We are talking about expansion between .57 and .64 -- penetration would be 14 to 18 inches both in calibrated ballistic gel. This is a fierce anti personnel load. You might want to google a guy named Doc GKR or Doc GK Roberts. he has done some very professional research on the 30 carbine loads. The Federal SP acts like an FMJ in ballistic gel.
I use Winchester HSP because it exactly matches the POI of WWB FMJ which is my practice load. Both of these feed and function perfectly even in my old bananna mags. The Remington is hard to get on the west coast but functions perfectly. CorBon will soon bring out a DPX load which might be better than anything else made.
In terms of factory loads; the Remington and Winchester give the best ratio of expansion and penetration. One well controlled study showed the Wnchester HSP slightly superior and another well controlled study showed the Remington slightly superior.
We are talking about expansion between .57 and .64 -- penetration would be 14 to 18 inches both in calibrated ballistic gel. This is a fierce anti personnel load. You might want to google a guy named Doc GKR or Doc GK Roberts. he has done some very professional research on the 30 carbine loads. The Federal SP acts like an FMJ in ballistic gel.
I use Winchester HSP because it exactly matches the POI of WWB FMJ which is my practice load. Both of these feed and function perfectly even in my old bananna mags. The Remington is hard to get on the west coast but functions perfectly. CorBon will soon bring out a DPX load which might be better than anything else made.
Grump
Member
UPDATE!!!
I just bought some Sierra 110-gr JPHs and they are pointy. Rather than try to exchange them, I'm trying them out with a reduced load of 296.
Loaded to magazine-length, they fit, the ogive is right where it lets a hint of crimp be used, and the base of the bullet is just getting to the thicker brass. There is a visible ring but still well within easy chambering.
Will let you know how they shoot in two weeks when get out again.
I just bought some Sierra 110-gr JPHs and they are pointy. Rather than try to exchange them, I'm trying them out with a reduced load of 296.
Loaded to magazine-length, they fit, the ogive is right where it lets a hint of crimp be used, and the base of the bullet is just getting to the thicker brass. There is a visible ring but still well within easy chambering.
Will let you know how they shoot in two weeks when get out again.
GooseGestapo
Member
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Ditto JohnnyGuest,
The first .30 Carbine loads I fired back in the 60's were some of these loaded by a gun club member. They were gaschecked, and were 115gr in weight with the alloy used.
The owner of the carbine (actually an M2 full-auto, with folding stock. he was also a class III dealer) used this load to cheaply shoot actual full auto with a load that was minimal to function the firearm.
Even back then with ammo as cheap as it was (in retrospect), it was still cheaper yet to "roll your own".
They seemed to shoot quite well in fact!
I belive he was using #2400 powder.
The first .30 Carbine loads I fired back in the 60's were some of these loaded by a gun club member. They were gaschecked, and were 115gr in weight with the alloy used.
The owner of the carbine (actually an M2 full-auto, with folding stock. he was also a class III dealer) used this load to cheaply shoot actual full auto with a load that was minimal to function the firearm.
Even back then with ammo as cheap as it was (in retrospect), it was still cheaper yet to "roll your own".
They seemed to shoot quite well in fact!
I belive he was using #2400 powder.
Sven
Senior Member
More 'off the shelf' solutions
While not exactly "pointy" I've had no problems and excellent accuracy with these two offerings:
Remington - .30 Carbine Express Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 110-Grain Soft Point Bullet, 1990 fps
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/66188-7322-97.html
Winchester - .30 Carbine Super-X Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 110-Grain Hollow Soft Point Bullet, 1990 fps
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65169-7844-97.html
I think they'd beat hardball on your critter of choice... both give killer groups for me in my Winchester M1s, fed and cycled just fine. Only problem is you can't "plink" with this stuff.. too pricey.
While not exactly "pointy" I've had no problems and excellent accuracy with these two offerings:
Remington - .30 Carbine Express Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 110-Grain Soft Point Bullet, 1990 fps
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/66188-7322-97.html
Winchester - .30 Carbine Super-X Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 110-Grain Hollow Soft Point Bullet, 1990 fps
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65169-7844-97.html
I think they'd beat hardball on your critter of choice... both give killer groups for me in my Winchester M1s, fed and cycled just fine. Only problem is you can't "plink" with this stuff.. too pricey.
For reloaders, this speer 110gr HP has interesting potential from an M1 carbine. The forward cannelure is correct for an M1 carbine and the knurled rear cannelure is for reduced loads with 30 cal. bottleneck rifle cartridges (2000 fps max IIRC). I loaded some a decade ago and they fed and shot fine in an M1 carbine. It's like a minature remington semi-jacketed revolver hollowpoint. Why try to tumble a bullet when you can have reliable expansion? For carbine reloading, AA#9 is a very nice, efficient powder to use.
TN Shooter
Member
Hi Oleg-
I have had great luck with Alliant 2400 and the Speer 110 gr. HP shown above as well the Hornady 90 gr. XTP. These bullets will open up much better than the Sierra 110 gr. SP bullets that are made specifically for the .30 Carbine.
Let me know if you're interested and we can go shoot some reactive targets with them.
Bill
I have had great luck with Alliant 2400 and the Speer 110 gr. HP shown above as well the Hornady 90 gr. XTP. These bullets will open up much better than the Sierra 110 gr. SP bullets that are made specifically for the .30 Carbine.
Let me know if you're interested and we can go shoot some reactive targets with them.
Bill
Sunray
Member
"...interesting potential..." They don't only have potential. They work just fine out of my carbine with IMR4227. Blows a hole the size of a grapefruit in a ground hog.
Jim Watson
Member
Before you get too frisky, the Carbine proof load was a 150 grain M2 bullet over the service powder charge for a 110 grain bullet. Not a lot of margin there.
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