Cartridge loading question and some 1866 gun porn

[BCRider]

A few weeks back I managed to buy this Uberti 1866 Yellowboy with octagonal barrel chambered in 44-40. The plan is to primarily use it along with a cut down external hammer side by side and my C&B guns for Frontiersman category cowboy shooting. I've got this bug to try to be as period correct in my firearms as I can manage within reason. Pictures of the new toy shown below.

Anywho.....Because of the brass receiver and general weakness of the toggle action I'd really like to reduce the load down to around 25 to 30gns of 3F and use a filler to gain the desired compression. To keep it simple because the cowboy loads simply don't require the ultimate accuracy but need to be simple and fast to load I'm looking at dropping in the powder with a drop tube then top the charge off with a measure of Cream Of Wheat to get to the proper height for about 1/8 to 5/32 inch worth of compression.

The question is will the compression prevent undue mixing or would I be better off with a separator?

The bullets I'm using are produced commercially by a local outfit. The owner shoots his bullets with the stock lube in black powder "Frontier Cartridge" so I'm guessing that he uses a BP friendly lube for general production. I've sent them an email asking to confirm this or if I need to use a different lube.

One option if I need a different lube would be to make up some lube pills that take up the extra room. And perhaps the COW could be mixed in as a filler so I don't use up so much lube mixture.

 

[Crawdad1]

That rifle really shines BC, good catch.

 

[StrawHat]

For the relatively short range you will be using that rifle, there is no need to use a drop tube. The 44 WCF can be treated as a revolver cartridge and loaded on a progressive machine. If you are going for authenticity, use the full charge of black powder. If you feel the need for a filler, use a second powder measure to add it to the case. Seating the bullet will give you enough stability to keep the filler and the powder from mixing.

Use a black powder lube. From the maker or your own.

While the 1866 is not up to handling the 458 Magnum, don't let it fool you. It is more than adequate for the cartridges which it chambers. Especially when loaded with black powder. The "weakness of a brass framed revolver" does not carry over to the rifles.

Nice rifle, wish I still had mine.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Straw Hat is correct.

While toggle link actions are not as strong as the later 1892 action, they are completely up to modern loads as long as you keep them within SAAMI Max specifications. In his book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West, Mike Venturino relates the story of a brass framed Henry that had its headpace ruined by less than a box of hot 44-40 loads. But these were hot loads. The Italian made brass framed 1860 Henry and 1866 rifles are proofed for Max SAAMI spec ammunition. They will not have a problem with standard loads, you do not even have to restrict them to 'cowboy loads'.

The same holds true for Black Powder. There is no need to go through the added hassle of adding filler, unless you want to conserve powder. There is also no need for a drop tube for CAS ammo. Just dump in the powder, enough so that it will be compressed by about 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. That's all there is to it.

If you do decide to go with filler, as long as the bullet compresses the powder/filler column, they will not mix. I used to add a bit of cornmeal on top of my loads. If there is no space for the powder or filler to wiggle, they will remain separated. I suppose if you subjected them to ultrasonic vibration they might mix, but not sitting on the shelf, nor sitting on the floor of the car on the way to the range.

Back when I was pan lubing regular hard cast bullets for Black Powder I used to add a soft lube cookie under the bullet. Until I realized that the cookie was gluing itself to the base of the bullet, causing it to wobble like a lopsided dart, ruining accuracy. So then I added a card wad under the bullet to keep the lube cookie from getting glued to the base of the bullet. I was also adding a card wad under the cookie to keep it from adulterating the powder. Power, card wad, lube cookie, card wad, bullet. Way too much work.

If you use regular hard cast bullets you can melt the hard lube out and pan lube them with a BP compatible lube. I used to do it all the time. Typically, the skimpy lube groove of a modern bullet does not carry enough soft lube to keep the fouling moist for the entire length of a rifle barrel. You can get away with it in a revolver, but most typical bullets run out of lube about six inches from the muzzle, resulting in hard fouling near the muzzle. The pain in the butt solution is to add all that junk inside the cartridge as I mentioned. The simple solution is to swab out your bore every few stages with your favorite water based BP solvent. The hard fouling will be removed from near the muzzle and accuracy will be restored.

Of course, the simplest of all solutions is to use a bullet specifically designed for Black Powder. I load 44-40 with the Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet, lubed with SPG. The lube groove on this bullet is huge, and will carry all the lube needed to keep the gun working for an entire match. I dump in my FFg (usually around 35 grains, depending on the brand) and seat and crimp my bullet on top.

Simple.

 

[Jim Watson]

As DJ said, you can load with a full case of FFg in current drawn brass and do just fine without non-gunpowder crap in your ammunition.

Actually, that same Venturino guy wrote that he DID use a drop tube, card wad, and compression die for CAS ammo and the gun shot clean enough to avoid having to wipe between stages.

 

[J-Bar]

Greetings, fellow Frontiersman!

Your rifle is much too shiny to be period correct; better let me antique it for you!

My experience with blackpowder cartridges is with the straight walled cases, .45 Colt, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum. I don't know if my comments will apply to the .44-40, but the shoulder is so gentle I suspect they will.

I think making a distinction between 1/8" and 5/32" of compression is irrelevant. I really don't want to open the can of worms about air gaps in black powder loads, but in my experience, if the bottom of the seated bullet is just barely in contact with the top of the powder, I will shoot it. I have not encountered any problems using that rule in the 3 calibers I use. (When shooting a muzzle loading rifle with larger powder charges, I make sure the powder is compressed. In my mind the larger powder charge makes it a different situation).

As an experiment, I made some super-light .45 Colt blackpowder loads using 7 grains of 2F Goex. I tamped a piece of paper towel over the powder charge, then filled the remainder of the case with corn meal to ensure compression and prevent mixing of powder and filler. I topped it off with the same home cast/home lubed bullet that I normally use for blackpowder loads. These loads ignited and were right on the borderline for meeting the 400 fps SASS velocity requirement. They were just not fun to shoot so I did not pursue the experiment further, but even with all that filler, the normal lube worked. (In CAS/SASS competition, I use cartridges with a case full of powder, no fillers. As I said, this was just an experiment.)

I have never used a lube wad between powder and bullet in my cartridges. I have no doubt it would work fine, but seems like a lot of extra bother. I suggest running a trial with the powder volume you want, sprinkle your filler on top of that to give some compression, and try 'em at the range. I think with the ratio of filler to powder that you are talking about, I would not expect you to have any problems.

Be sure to give us a follow up report. and shoot well!

 

[Don McDowell]

Make sure the bullets are .001 over groove diameter.
I'ld suggest just dropping in enough 2f that the bullet will compress the powder just a touch as it's seated. The thing to repeated shots with accuracy without fouling control, is use a good lube, and make sure the powder charge is burning hot enough to burn the fouling down. Lite loads of black generally tend to foul heavier.
Your rifle will handle a lifetime of all the full power blackpowder rounds you can run thru it.

 

[BCRider]

Thanks for the info guys. And JBar, that's OK. I've got lots of practice in "antiqueing" my own stuff. I'll have that shine rubbed off it soon enough...

I'm just waiting on the word back from the bullet makers about the lube. But BP friendly or not I strongly suspect that there isn't enough of it. Mind you I've already shot a bunch of their .357 size bullets from my Rossi 92 without any issue. These being Pyrodex loads mind you. But I'd run the guns for a day of 5 or 6 stages and the 92 would be fine at the end of the day and the bore cleaned up easily. Of course cowboy shooting doesn't normally call for the utmost in accuracy.

When I got this rifle I have to admit that the shiny varnish on the wood put me off a little. I'm strongly thinking that it's going to get stripped off and replaced with a nice rubbed oil finish. But first I want to get it shooting well and work out the loads for it.

More as it happens be it good or bad just so others can learn from my experience.

 

[Fingers McGee]

What J-Bar & Driftwood said +1

I've been shooting a 44-40 '66 carbine in CAS matches since Feb 2003. After going through different bullet and powder combinations over the years, I settled on a load of 32 grains by weight of fffg BP (usually Scheutzen or Grafs nowdays) under a 200 grain big lube bullet with a home made BP lube about 4 years ago. Unless the weather is hot and dry, I can usually clean the bore with 4 patches and don't have to take he action down for cleaning more than once or twice a year.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Back up the bus for just a minute.

Are you going to be using real Black Powder or Pyrodex? The advice I gave you is for real Black Powder. If you use Pyrodex, you still need to use a BP compatible bullet lube. But Pyrodex weighs much less than real Black Powder, and you would be best off to use an appropriate volume of Pyrodex in the case to achieve compression under the bullet. The charge will weigh less than a similar charge of real BP.

Personally, I would not use Pyrodex in any of my guns, it is more corrosive then real Black Powder. If I had to use a sub, I would use APP. The advantage of APP is you do not need to use a BP compatible lube, you can use regular Smokeless lube.

 

[Fingers McGee]

Again, Driftwood Johnson +1.

I would never use pyrodex in any gun I own

 

[BCRider]

Get that blood pressure down DJ

I shot with Pyrodex until now but as both of you say I found it's MORE aggressive at staining or corroding than the Real Thing. So the intent it to switch over fully to proper BP for the sake of both the guns and the brass.

And that brings up another question..... For a case as large as 44-40 can I get away with 3f or would 2f be a better option?

I'd LIKE to stay with 3f simply because my other front stuffers and C&B wheelguns all use 3f already. Easier to keep supplies if I can get away with a "one size fits all" option. At the moment I've got about 6lbs of 3f and 1/3 of 4f just for the flint pan.

Added on- Ah, I just saw Fingers' recipe. It's nice that I can get by with 3f for everything. At least for now. I'm also looking at possibly switching to plain lubed bullets and BP and playing with paper patched BP loads for my .38-55 at some point in the near future.

 

[Noz]

A little lessening of velocity with the FFg but of no consequence. If you have FFFg use it. I use FFg in everything from 32-10 to 12 ga.

 

[Fingers McGee]

An ffg loading would probably have less recoil in my pistols that an fffg loading would; but I'm primarily using it in the rifle. Pistols are generally .36 cal Navies.

One of these days I guess I should chrono the ffg and fffg loads in rifles and pistols. Sounds like a day at the range when nice weather comes back.

 

[BCRider]

I'm also looking at loading my own black powder shot shells using Magtech brass cases. I'm thinking I'll need to expand out to 2f for that if nothing else. Or am I over thinking that as well?

 

[J-Bar]

Yes, I think 2F is a better choice than 3F for shotshells.

May I ask why you want to use brass hulls?

They look classy but they are rather expensive, and I've heard its a pain to get the glue just right to seal them up.

I've never reloaded them myself; had good luck using black powder in AAs, STS, and even the el cheapo Remington black Gun Club field load hulls...

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Generally speaking, all other things being equal, you get somewhere between 60fps - 100fps more by using FFFg instead of FFg in any pistol cartridge.

I used to use FFFg for 45 Colt and 44-40. I used FFg in 12 gauge shotgun. I decided to simplify things quite a while ago and now use nothing but FFg in 12 Gauge, 45-70, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian and 38-40. It just keeps things simpler. When I shoot my 44 caliber C&B pistols I use FFg in them too.

Regarding brass shells for Black Powder shotgun, I have never been interested in using them. They are expensive and tedious to load. They must be loaded one at a time by hand. We go through a lot of shotgun shells in CAS. I use conventional STS or AA shells that have been reloaded several times with Smokeless powder for trap. Then I load them one more time with Black Powder before throwing them away. Sometimes I load them a second time. I can load them reasonably quickly on my old MEC Jr, cranking out four boxes in an hour.