Colt 1917 moon clip confusion

[Alec]

From what I've read about the various 1917s, they varied slightly in design and either have cylinders that are bored straight (in which case you must use moon clips, since the .45 ACP falls right through) or have a shoulder to allow shooting .45 ACP without moon clips (although you would need to poke out the empty cases).

Mine seems to be neither-- There are shoulders, but the .45 ACP sits completely flush with the cylinder, far enough away that the hammer can't touch the primers. It fires just fine with moon clips, but this seems inconsistent with what I've read. Why have the shoulder at all if it's too long to allow the cartridge to fire? Does anyone else have a Colt or S&W 1917 that looks this way?

It did occur to me that there is a chance it is chambered for something else, but .455 Eley/Colt is even shorter and .45 Colt is far too long.

Any info on this would be appreciated.

 

[Hardtarget]

Isn't there a rimmed .45 round that is the same as .45 acp? Maybe it set up for that case.

I just checked the Lyman #48 ...it showed a .45 Rimmed cartridge. I do not know where you might find some of those. Good luck.

Mark

 

[Alec]

Thanks Mark. Yes, there is the .45 Auto Rim, but that should work in this revolver regardless of the chamber shoulder, since a .45 AR round would go about as far into the chamber as a .45 ACP with moon clips.

 

[Kp321]

The 45 Auto Rim is the same OAL as the ACP cartridge. The thick rim substitutes for the moon clip plus the thickness of the brass behind the extractor groove on the ACP case.
I cannot answer your original question about the chambers in your 1917. The ones I have seen allow the ACP case to headspace properly in the chamber or fall through, nothing in between.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Colt .45 1917s were made with a long chamber so you have to use the clips.

S&W, on the other hand, is chambered so the case mouth sits on a shoulder and can be fired without clips.

Either Colt or S&W can be used with .45 Autorim ammo.

Deaf

 

[Jim K]

Does the cylinder serial number match the frame number (inside the crane)? If not, you might have a New Service or a Model 1909 cylinder (chambered for .45 Colt) fitted to a 1917 and cut to take .45 ACP with a moon clip. Colt reportedly did use some .45 Colt cylinders, but reamed the shoulder out of them; the numbers should match with those, though. (I can't tell from the pictures how long the chamber is.)

Not all Colt Model 1917 cylinders are bored through, only the first ones were; they probably had been made originally for the ..45 Colt and had shoulders made accordingly, but were reamed and diverted to M1917 production. Later cylinders had the shoulders cut for the .45 ACP.

Jim

 

[Hardtarget]

Cool! You guys really brought some info. Way more than I had! Very interesting.

Mark

 

[Alec]

It's as though it's cut for a caliber that is longer than the .45 ACP, but shorter than the .45 Colt or even the .45 Schofield. I can't see how it's possible to take a .45 Colt cylinder and re-shoulder it for anything shorter, you can't add metal to the inside of the chamber.

In any case, the cylinder and frame serials match. I can't test with a .45 Schofield since I don't have any, but with a difference of .202 inches, it seems a bit too long. Just shy of 1/4", which I definitely can't fit between the cylinder face and breech face.

My caliper can't fit in the chambers, but I'll mark it on a toothpick and then measure. It won't be as precise, but I will report back later.

 

[cfullgraf]

My calipers can't fit in the chambers, but I'll mark it on a toothpick and then measure. It won't be as precise. If I ever find .45 Schofield, I will plunk test it and report back.

The extension of the caliper's slide that extends out the end of the caliper when your taking a measurement is designed to be used as a depth measurement tool.

Sit the end of the caliper on the object and extend the rod down the hole.

It should give you better results than using a tooth pick.

 

[BobWright]

For the record, I have owned several Colt M1917s in the past, and all would fire .45 ACP without the use of clips. Loaded into the chamber, the cannelure stood proud of the face of the cylinder. Use an unsharpened red Coca Cola pencil for ejection.

In fact, I hated loading those half moon clips (full moon clips had not been invented then) so much I considered making a spring loaded ejecting tool that would fit the cylinder throat area from the front for pushing empties out. Started with an old spring loaded retractable ball point pen.

Then, having forgotten my experience with the M1917s, I later bought a Smith & Wesson Model 625 in .45 ACP!

Bob Wright

 

[Jim Watson]

That is very strange, it is only about .090" too deep, not enough to account for any other .45 cartridge I know of.

I read often about those early 1917 Colts with the cylinders "bored straight through" but I have only read of one actually being found in captivity. Did they go back and recylinder all they could?

 

[UncleEd]

Bob Wright,

If I recall about half the Colts, earliest production, did not have the shoulders to support the .45 ACP. The later models did.

 

[BobWright]

F

Uncle Ed said:

Bob Wright,

If I recall about half the Colts, earliest production, did not have the shoulders to support the .45 ACP. The later models did.

I'm aware of that, but have seen less than a handful of those bored through, while most of the ones I've seen, and all the ones I've owned, were chambered for the ACP round. This from the days of $24.95 guns and $1.00 per box of fifty FA headstamped surplus .45 ACP ammo. And bought mail order through Popular Mechanics magazine.

And I think possibly many of those bored through were converted M1909 Colts.

Bob Wright

 

[jeepnik]

Colt .45 1917s were made with a long chamber so you have to use the clips.

S&W, on the other hand, is chambered so the case mouth sits on a shoulder and can be fired without clips.

Either Colt or S&W can be used with .45 Autorim ammo.

Deaf

Early Colt 1917's did not have the shoulder for that the .45 acp to headspace on the mouth of the case. At some point, I'm not going to bother looking up the serial number range, Colt also added the step in the cylinder.

Also, some New Service revolvers were chambered in .455 Ely, but to my knowledge no 1917's were.

 

[Jim Watson]

I keep reading that, the number 50,000 turns up every now and then.
I have seen reliable report of one (1.0) on this board.

 

[Deanimator]

Is it possible it's NEITHER a .45acp NOR a .45 Colt cylinder, but something else?

Perhaps it's a .476 Webley cylinder. I used to have one that I bought when I was trying to figure out why my New Service was keyholing with every shot.

 

[Alec]

I've learned that the confusion here is an example of my lack of revolver knowledge, not a Colt manufacturing inconsistency. The chamber ridge is not for headspacing, but simply a leaded-up chamber throat.

So this is just a run-of-the-mill early manufacture 1917 that requires clips, not some special oddball.

Thanks to all that have contributed.

 

[Coyote3855]

Glad you sorted it out. If you have not already done so, I recommend purchasing a tool to load/unload moon clips. Makes the job much easier and you don't risk bending the clips. Auto Rim ammunition is difficult to find and expensive when you do, whereas Winchester White Box can be found about everywhere. I have a Colt 1917 and it a neat revolver. Also note that the Colt and S&W usually shoot best with jacketed bullets. My experience, yours may vary.

 

[highlander 5]

If you want 45 AR you can get brass from Starline and Pat's reloading has Remington brass. There 1 or 2 companies (can't think of their name offhand) the ammo is expensive and load to somewhat higher pressures I'd be reluctant to fire them in your 1917.

 

[Curator]

Alec,

You may find that the firing pin can reach the primer of a loaded GI .45ACP round. Colt added the chamber throat after earlier guns were so inaccurate without them. I had one of each of these some time ago. The early model without chamber throats would barely hit the side of the barn from the inside. The later model had the same issue as yours being "chambered" long. It would shoot WWII surplus .45ACP without the moon clips but not reloaded semi-wadcutter ammo. It took me a while to figure out the GI ammo was "headspacing" on the bullet.

 

[Alec]

Hardball also drops right in and goes flush with the cylinder face.