Colt Police Positive Special help

[jwxspoon]

I just picked up a new revolver and I'm very intrigued by its potential history. It's a Colt Police Positive Special in .38 Special. Serial number is 34-2678. I believe this was a police department presentation weapon, because "IPD No.21" is stamped on the bottom of the butt.

I don't believe this weapon has ever been fired. The bore is like new.

The weapon is nickel plated and I believe it is a very high quality refinish job. I suspect that a police department had some new quality weapons and had a batch nickel plated for presentation purposes.

I'd greatly appreciate any information you could provide for me.

jw

 

[Jim Watson]

Never saw a Colt with a dash in the serial number.
Plain 342678 dates to 1928 at Proofhouse.com

Lots of PDs put issue numbers on their guns, wouldn't you think a presentation piece would have the presentee's name on it?

A factory letter saying when and where shipped and in what finish will cost you $75.

 

[jwxspoon]

Looks like a dash to me, I guess I could be wrong and it could be a long line from the 4.

jw

 

[jwxspoon]

This is the police marking

jw

 

[Old Fuff]

I.P.D. was the Irvington N.J. Police Department.

Serial number 342678 was made in 1928

The rear face of the front sight has been altered from the original half-moon shape, so I suspect that the nickel plate is a refinish - although Colt offered factory nickel plate at the time, and nickel plated revolvers were often purchased by police departments because the finish was more rust resistant then bluing.

The black, hard rubber stocks appear to be original, and correct for the time period, although after 1923 they also used checkered walnut with a nickeled trademark medallion at the top. If you remove them (be very careful they are now very brittle and easily cracked or chipped) you should find all or part of the serial number scratched on the inside of one panel. Otherwise I'd suspect they were replacements.

Anyway it's a neat gun...

 

[Cosmoline]

Oh wow! A first gen Colt PPS in that condition! Most of the ones I've seen are really beaten up.

That's a keeper. From the days when police officers wore full dress uniforms and had shiny buttons.

 

[jwxspoon]

Thanks for the info guys. What a neat piece of history!

jw

 

[Jim K]

It is possible that a police department ordered nickel plated revolvers, but it would be very unlikely and PD marked guns in original nickel are very uncommon. I suspect the revolver was either sold off when the department upgraded or was sold/given to police retiree, and a subsequent owner had it nickel plated.

Hey, OF, I sort of hesitate to ask, since you really do know your stuff, but how do you know IPD was Irvington, NJ, and not Irvine, CA, Indianapolis, IN, or any of the other cities or counties whose names start with "I"?

Jim

 

[Ron James]

I wondered about the same thing but was really hesitant to bring it up. why Irvington Police Department???

 

[Old Fuff]

Hey, OF, I sort of hesitate to ask, since you really do know your stuff, but how do you know IPD was Irvington, NJ, and not Irvine, CA, Indianapolis, IN, or any of the other cities or counties whose names start with "I"?

I wondered about the same thing but was really hesitant to bring it up. why Irvington Police Department???

You mere mortals dare question the encyclopedia-like knowledge of the Old Fuff…??

Next thing you know someone will say it was just a guess….

Young geeks will claim I Googled…

Others will say, (with considerable justification) that the Old Fuff is full of hot air.

Academia will demand a cite…

Well O.K….

It all has to do with a bit of luck, and finding the right book:

The Book of Colt Firearms, by R.Q. Sutherland & R.L. Wilson; 1st Ed. page 388 (which lists police markings for the Colt Police Positive Special revolver)

And all this time you thought that the Old Fuff had all of this in his own little (very little) brain…

 

[Will5A1]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Museum-Fraud.html

completely off topic, but I thought Old Fluff and others might be interested, looks like one of the authors mentioned above just beat a rap

 

[jwxspoon]

Old Fuff I am in awe.


jw

 

[Old Fuff]

completely off topic, but I thought Old Fluff and others might be interested, looks like one of the authors mentioned above just beat a rap

So I was informed. He spent a year or more in the slammer, and I doubt that he will doing anymore historical research. It's sad. I have met him, and at one time he was regarded as a leader in his field. Now all of that is lost.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Fuff,

The book lists only those guns bought directly from and marked by, the Colt factory, not any that may have been marked outside the factory, as many (if not most) were. Is the mark on this one close enough to known factory marks to be reasonably sure it is from the factory?

Jim

 

[funnelcake]

One quick note, that barrel looks like a later model replacement as opposed to original with an altered front sight. The sight base and ramp are correct for a 3rd issue weapon and I thought I could see the Colt name & address single line along the right side of the barrel instead of on the top with patent dates, etc.?

Eh...maybe replacement grips also '28 would have been wood/ medallion but those would pre-date the C-grips also; are the eustechons (that's probably not spelled right, but I'm done tryin) brass or nickel plated?

Either way, it's fine looking & a really nice nickel job. JWXSPOON, got a kick out of your signature still chuckling.

Funnel

 

[Old Fuff]

Jim:

The listings in Sutherland & Wilson’s book show the identical mark, down to the periods after the letters. It could have been marked outside of the factory, but I doubt it. The only way to tell for sure is to get a factory letter. I suspect they made their list by surveying Colt's collection of roll stamps. Besides police departments - foreign and domestic - they include express companies and such.

By 1928 Colt had switched to walnut stocks, but were still using up supplies of the older black hard-rubber kind, and to some degree did so until World War Two. The way to confirm if they are original to the gun is to remove them and see if one or both panels are serial numbered on the inside. But be careful, if or when you do this. Don't force anything.

The front sight unquestionably has been altered. In any case, old or replaced, the model and cartridge markings would be on the left side of the barrel.

 

[funnelcake]

Previous ipost may have been poor choice of words regarding the grips. Those grips would likely not have been correct for a mid-late 20's model. More than likely came with wood/ medallion, if not, would have been the "C" grips. Those in the picture would be correct for a New Police model.

I really think that's a 3rd issue barrel. The right side pretty clearly reads "COLT'S PT. FA. MFG. CO. HARTFORD, CONN. U.S.A." a 3rd issue & up rollmark. A '28 would have had the Colt & patent date stuff on the top.

Funnel

 

[Jim K]

Thanks, Fuff. I am ashamed to admit it, but I somehow missed the illustrations.

Jim