creep problem

[CAnnoneer]

Okay, I'd like some advice, especially from you LEOs out there.

On Saturday I was crossing a parking lot to get to shopping around in my area in the commercial district, when I got approached by a thin tall black guy, around 40, dressed neatly if inexpensively. He stopped within an arm's reach and starting mumbling something like "Help out a brother... I have three sons... Times are hard...". He did not look needy to me, so I just ignored him and moved on while keeping him in my peripheral vision. I noticed he approached somebody else next, in the same fashion.

I finished my shopping, came out of the mall, and there he is again. He does exactly the same thing. This time I waved him off with a gesture and again moved out of the area. He mumbled something like "Okay then" and moved away too.

Next I get to my car in an adjacent parking lot, where a friend of mine is waiting inside my car. I get in and I am about to pull out when this same bum comes to my front passenger door. My back window on the same side was open for ventilation and then my friend freaked out because she saw him, and she whispered "close the window, close the window." At this time, I was really boiling up, lowered the front window, and yelled at him to step away from my car or I'd come out and bust his ass so bad he'd scream! At that point, the POS turns around and makes off like the wind.

Later, my friend told me she was really scared and had never seen me react like that. She was laughing later that it was stupid of her to get scared as it was clear I could have "handled" him if need be (I am a pretty big guy - 248 lbs, 6'1"). Well, I don't think getting scared is ever stupid, but, whatever.

Anyway, I thought that was the end of that. However, yesterday I was loading my grocesries into the trunk of my car in another part of my area in a VONS parking lot when I sensed somebody moving in my peripheral vision. I swerved around - face to face with the same creep! Same mumbling and same begging for money. This time, I was about to clobber him, but then I realized that would have been assault. Also, taking into account I am whiter than snow, he is black, and I am stronger, younger, and heavier, things would not have looked very well in a PRK court. So I just went off flatfoot, ready to pounce, and pointed for him to get lost. He mumbled "No? Okay then, times are hard..." and made away. Only then did I turn away, got into my car, and left VONS.

Frankly, this guy is starting to really tick me off! He does not look homeless or an alcoholic, but he may be a drug addict and/or just a smart parasite. What can I do legally to rid the community of this creep? I do not want to break the law, incur serious expenses, or in any way endanger my legal gun possession.

Ideas please. LEO advice is particularly welcome.

 

[JamisJockey]

Sounds like a crackhead to me. Or, he could be mentally imbalanced and just trying to get some money.
You did fine. Bad people look for victims. You're not a victim.
Report him to store management. They can get him picked up for trespassing and harrassment. Then the cops get to rifle through his pockets, who knows what they'll find.

 

[QuickDraw]

Yikes!!
Their following you!
Seriously,hes probably just one of the many
crazy,insane,mentally deranged people that
we in California are blessed with.
Ignore him and he will go (hopefully)away.
(unless he IS following you)

QuickDraw

 

[Lupinus]

Inform the owner/manager that he has someone that you have seen repeaditly harrasing his customer and has harrased you personally several times. If you have the time to spare hand out in the parking lot in your car and get an idea of the times he is usualy there so you can tell the manager and have his employees keep a look back or request the cops to make periodical drive byes to see if they can catch him.

Remember one time in NYC when I was 12 visiting big black guy that even at 12 could tell he was a serious drugie stepped out infront of me right in my face asking for money. Second time was in SC jsut a few months ago while visiting. I told him to bug off. Problem is some will get violent if you tell them in the "wrong" manner. And while I personally would not be overly afriad there are others I would worry about them getting violent with such as a woman or child. I have seen one literaly advance and back a woman up agianst her car asking for money while she was literaly shaking with a deer in the headlights look on her face. That was put an end to with a threat his head would be denting the pavement if he didn't back off.

Bugging me for money does not bother me. What bothers me is that he is likly bugging other people that he can intimidate (kids, women, etc) And while msot are harmless there is a percentage that are violent, unstabble, or will get very aggresive even if not technicly violent.

Edited to add some points I left out.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Bugging me for money does not bother me. What bothers me is that he is likly bugging other people that he can intimidate (kids, women, etc) And while msot are harmless there is a percentage that are violent, unstabble, or will get very aggresive even if not technicly violent.

Precisely.

Druggies can turn violent in second. One moment, they may seem docile, the next they may stab you in the back.

 

[Johnny_Yuma]

I am an LEO and my advice

is to get a handle on your temper before you end up in a cell.

You were about to clobber him for asking you for a handout? Sheesh, try politely telling beggars "sorry, can't help" before one gets close next time. Odds are, he will walk off. I politely turn down maybe a half dozen men and women begging in this same manner every day and I have yet to have a problem with one.

Same mumbling and same begging for money. This time, I was about to clobber him, but then I realized that would have been assault. Also, taking into account I am whiter than snow, he is black, and I am stronger, younger, and heavier, things would not have looked very well in a PRK court.

The reason things would not have looked well in court is that you would have committed a crime by clobbering him. It would have had nothing to do with being in a California court, being white, stronger, etc. It would have had everything to do with you hitting the man for begging.

Telling someone you will "bust his ass" for standing near your car is a crime in my jurisdiction, absent some threatening action on his part.

You might stop refering to people as "creep," "POS," and "parasite." It just jacks up your emotional response gets you out of the rational zone. And you are already OUT of that zone on this issue, sir. You live in a metropolitan area with 10 million people and you want to rid the community of this one man who begs for change at VONS? If this is a big issue for you, talk with the property manager. If the property manager does not mind him being there, the guy can stay and you are out of luck.

 

[Lupinus]

Johnny-
Im sorry but if a guy ask's me once thats one thing but when he asks several times and is constintly there doing it harrasing people then that is a problem. To many beggers are drugies or crazies and have no place harrasing people in parking lots. If I have a spare dollar I have been known to give it to a homeless person but when there is even a hint they are a druggie or crazy they need not apply. Standing there with a can is one thing walking up to people begging over and over agian even several times in the same day after being told no is another. Frankly if the managment knew about it and did nothing my buisness would go elsewhere.

And as for the standing next to the car telling him you will bust him is a crime....sorry I felt threatened and he was leanign against my car

 

[beerslurpy]

I think I speak for everyone with a lick of common sense when I say that the original poster committed no crime. Aggressive panhandlers should expect people to get angry and tell them to sod off. Considering they guy might have been trying to force his way into the car, I think the poster showed remarkable restraint.

Having grown up in NYC, I can tell you the only difference between an aggressive panhandler and a robber is whether or not he pulls a weapon. Half of these guys are mental patients that get kicked out of overcrowded facilities and end up wandering around without their meds. If such a bum started harassing me for change and wouldnt back down as I tried to distance myself from him, I would get ready to blast him just in case he decides to go ape?????. Better to be ready and pleasantly surprised by his docility than to be trusting and stabbed.

 

[Gordy Wesen]

the rebels got good advice. i always appreciate good advice outside the back of a police car.

 

[CAnnoneer]

I am an LEO and my advice is to get a handle on your temper before you end up in a cell.

You were about to clobber him for asking you for a handout? Sheesh, try politely telling beggars "sorry, can't help" before one gets close next time. Odds are, he will walk off. I politely turn down maybe a half dozen men and women begging in this same manner every day and I have yet to have a problem with one.

I appreciate the advice, but would like to make clear for the record that I have no bone to pick with beggars. In fact, I have given a buck or two to people that were clearly needy and/or hungry.

But, as Lupinus pointed out, persistent requests from the same subject is harassment and becomes a security issue exactly because it is suggestive of a mental condition and/or drug use. When they approach and stop at your car in a manner threatening enough to scare your passenger, then you have to assume it is a security issue. It becomes even more so when he sneaks up on you from behind.

What if this mental had a knife in his back pocket, or gun? As LEO is your advice really to do nothing until AFTER you get hurt?

Typical. The law is constructed to punish, not prevent.

Any other LEOs please.

 

[JamisJockey]

I'll say it again. Parking lots are typically private property. Notify the store manager, they will almost always get the guy run off. If he returns, notify them again, and suggest they charge him with tresspass. The the cops get to find the crack vial in his pocket and lock 'em away.

 

[Lupinus]

Can-
I agree with you 100%. I have given a buck or two here and there as well. Was always in a hurry though I'd actually prefer offering to take them to Mcdonalds or something so I know that the money is going to food but not always possible to do that.

But aggressive begging is another matter entirly and with how you discribed he is either a druggie or a nutjob. Both equally dangerous and if I came out of a store and saw one aggressivly begging someone I knew or someone that was obviously scared they would be told in no short order to scram if they persisted they would have their face on the ground untill the police arived. Let them find "his" crack vial then.

 

[EddieCoyle]

persistent requests from the same subject is harassment

No, it's not. Sorry, it doesn't rise to the level of harrassment. This guy does not sound very threatening. Each time you refused him, he took right off, and the time you got salty with him he made "off like the wind".

Persistent isn't aggressive. This guy sounds like he's got some mental problems and he probably asks for a handout from hundreds of people per day. Do you think there might be a chance that he forgot he asked you already? I'm guessing that's probably the case. Does he look away or down, or does he look you in the eye when he asks? If he doesn't look you in the eye, I doubt he remembers that he asked you already.

You want to see aggressive/persistent panhandlers? Go to NYC. When I lived there I must've been asked for money by the same bum outside my building at least 300 times (and that was just one guy- I'm not counting all of the others). I never gave him anything and he never quit asking.

I wouldn't worry about the guy having a gun. If he ever got a gun, he'd sell it so he could buy whatever it is that that he's begging money to get now.

Cannon, you gotta ask yourself if teaching this guy a lesson is worth going to court or to jail. Just tell the owner of the property that you're not going to shop there if you see the guy around. Remind him that if a big guy like you won't shop there, lot's of other people probably feel the same way.

 

[Tokugawa]

There is a big difference between disoriented, forgetful, mentally imbalanced, etc and threatening. There are people on the street who deserve our compassion. Yes, they may be begging and smell bad- who are we to judge what series of events has put them there- If you have never in your life wondered why you should go on living, count yourself fortunate.

This is not to excuse the truly lazy, who go home to the burbs at night to thier $$ homes, or the aggressive threatening panhandlers who like to intimidate. I have stopped a few of those and it didn't take a weapon or phyical force, just a look straight in the eye and the words "stop right there", delivered with quiet conviction. (of course, the unspoken implication was if he took one more step toward me or my small child, he would be staring down a gun barrel)

 

[1 old 0311]

When I lived in N.O. I would get approached all the time by these bums. The only one I ever gave money to was a old guy that came up and said
" Thunderbird wine is $1.79 a bottle. I got's $1.32. Can you give me 47 cent?" I think I gave him a five. Hell he was the ONLY honest bum that ever approached me.

Kevin

 

[Lupinus]

No, it's not. Sorry, it doesn't rise to the level of harrassment. This guy does not sound very threatening. Each time you refused him, he took right off, and the time you got salty with him he made "off like the wind".

And nine times out of ten a guy stalking a woman will run off when he is noticed. That not harrasment either jsut because he runs off when noticed or confronted? I consider anyone questionable who approches me a potential threat untill he proves otherwise. Esspecialy when he is persistent and does it repeaditly and seems off.

Persistent isn't aggressive. This guy sounds like he's got some mental problems and he probably asks for a handout from hundreds of people per day. Do you think there might be a chance that he forgot he asked you already?

It very easily can become so and Ido not trust someone who may be drugged up or highly unbalenced to not become aggressive when he is that persistent. As to forgetting? That is his problem not mine I will defend myself and others. Sorry if you forgot about harrasing me already several times if I feel a threat I will react accordingly, a potential threat is a potential threat your reason for appearing so is not my problem, my safty and the safty of others who I make it my problem is my concern. Im not going to pull a gun and shoot you just because I feel threatend unless there is a 100% clear cut threat. I will however be much less restrained in breaking your nose and/or putting you on the ground HARD.

You want to see aggressive/persistent panhandlers? Go to NYC.

Have thanks, been approched by them as young as twelve. And you don't have to be a NYC bum to be a threat.

I wouldn't worry about the guy having a gun. If he ever got a gun, he'd sell it so he could buy whatever it is that that he's begging money to get now.

Really? How come so many druggies have guns to rob people with then? Not all druggies are completly stupid some of them do have a few brain cells left and can figure out that they can get a lot more money robbing people with a gun then they can selling it at a pawn shop.

Cannon, you gotta ask yourself if teaching this guy a lesson is worth going to court or to jail.

Doubt highly it would get that far. If you killed/nearly killed the guy or went spacificly looking to confront him maybe, or he just asks for money and you hook him. But if someone approches me in a threatning manner repediatly I have a right to respond accordingly.

There is a big difference between disoriented, forgetful, mentally imbalanced, etc and threatening.

The line between one becomign the other is a very thin line and one that I and many people are not waiting for. A disoriented, mentally unstable, or drug addict is a threat and can turn from merly persistent to a harm in an instant. The difference is not big and clearcut, it is a VERY thin line.

There are people on the street who deserve our compassion. Yes, they may be begging and smell bad- who are we to judge what series of events has put them there

Yes there are but there are others who do not and are threats. And wo is judging how they got there? What is being judged is the threat level and a highly persistent potentialy unbalanced drug addict as a very high probablity of being a threat. Do they have to slice a woman up or sandwhich her between her car before something should be done?

I have stopped a few of those and it didn't take a weapon or phyical force, just a look straight in the eye and the words "stop right there", delivered with quiet conviction.

And the truly persistent will do it over and over agian and a percentage of thsoe will do so violently. They may not attack the linebacker but they just might not hesitate to attack/severly intimidate the cheerleader. It is a chance with a quite possibly unbalanced drug addict im not willing to take.

 

[brokendreams]

The fact of the matter is this:

If you would have struck him, you would have been the one in jail/court. He is doing absolutely nothing wrong UNTIL the store owner askes him to leave and he does not. At which point, it is simple trespassing if he re-enters.

Asking the guy repeatedly to leave you alone is unfortunate, but it happens. It happened seperate times on seperate occasions, he left when asked to do so, and he never became threatening or violent.

The fact that you DID become threatening and violent, puts you in a position of verbally assaulting him.

My advice: know how to stop somebody verbally without getting angry.

I applaud the fact that you were ready to administer a beating if it came to that, but the fact is, it never came CLOSE to that.

 

[Working Man]

Keep being polite and saying "sorry can't help" or just a simple "nope".
I have found just looking them in the eye and shaking my head side to
side in the universal "no" fation as they walk up to you often works.

I did have a guy block the stairs I was going up once...
He said "Why don't you gimme a dollor". My reaction was "What?!"
he placed his arms out and and grabed both sides railings of the stair
well to block me off and repeated just "Gimme a dollor". I looked at his
left hand holding on to one rail then looked him in the eye, smiled and
asked "Just how smart do you think that is?"

.... he let go of the railing and moved.

The ones that are troubble are mostly willing to be so because they think
you aren't. Be polite yet firm if need be.

 

[bogie]

Sounds like a _motivated_ beggar...

Remember if he hits a $5 every 10 minutes, that's $30 an hour. That's worth keeping it up.

 

[pete f]

I really have problems with people who act like that. I have had two people who were "just panhandlers", turn ugly when i said no. In one case, only drawing my weapon ended his spewing and threatening language. It was two AM and I was leaving a concert with my daughter and he cut me off and tried to force me to give him money, after telling him twice LOUDLY that I was not giving him a dime, He yelled at me demanded that I could afford to give him some money, He then pointed his hand at me and I threw a couple of dollars towards the curb and while he was distracted pulled my weapon and told him, his only chance to live was to run away. He turned and ran away. My daughter picked up the money and I called the cops. The whole incident was captured on surviellance cam and my actions were considered appropriate.

I now have a very thin skin for these people, if i am with my kids or wife and you walk up and try to force me to submit to what amounts to strong arm robbery, and I will react with force.