Damascus - is there a performance advantage ?

[ArfinGreebly]

Applications

I would refer you to hso's remarks, wherein he questions whether Damascus steels are currently used in any industrial applications.

The answer, quite simply, is no.

If you have a steel from which you expect exceptional performance, you would at least do a quick survey of whether it has such industrial applications. Industry is always looking for a better portfolio of metals for what they do. If they do a lot of cutting (like producing plastic cards, for example) they don't want to keep shutting down the line to install new blades. Shutting down a production line is expensive. No point in scrimping on the blade quality.

If Damascus steels were that much better, you'd see them in places like that. And you don't.


(FWIW, I don't believe MRPAPA will be joining us in this discussion. Otherwise occupied, you understand.)

 

[Zeke/PA]

No doubt about it, a well excuited Damascas blade is indeed a thing of beauty.
HOWEVER, D-2 rules!!

 

[hso]

There are industrial steels that exceed the cost of machine made "damascus". If damascus were better in a cutting application it would also be cheaper and therefore used instead of these more expensive steels.

It just isn't happening anywhere in the world. That's pretty definitive.

What about cutting competitions? This is the place where makers test their mettle (pun intended) and the merits of the metal and blade design in their knives. Anyone see damascus in the winning blades? If "damascus" were head and shoulders above every other steel then it would be winning all the cutting competitions. The fact that it is not is pretty definitive.

Pretty? Oh YES! As good as many common blade steels? If properly made, sure. As good as exotic steels? No.

Why is my opinion relevant? I've been buying and selling production and custom knives for over 30 years, that means lots of knives handled. I joined the Knife Maker's Guild nearly 20 years ago. Even my 11 year old daughter is a member of the American Bladesmith Society. I have very good friends who are custom knife makers and blade smiths (some of them even here) who I've spent days, and sometimes, weeks in their shops. I've spent years going to hammerins and shows listening to and talking with makers and manufacturers about knives and their performance. I even spent a few years in the Oak Ridge National Laboratory Metals and Ceramics Division and have done graduate work in Materials. And for some silly reason manufacturers and makers have asked my opinion on one thing or another and some have even found it useful.

But all that is shadowed by the two simple logical questions, why isn't it in industrial use when it's cheaper than some cutting steels and why isn't it in all the winning cutting competition knives?

This is your forum not mine, so you can all debate the issue, and I trust that the members here will come to the truth. OTOH, when someone comes in with bogus information it's my obligation point out the logical flaws.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for pattern welded steels. The beauty of the things made from it is enough reason alone. The fact that you can cut with such a thing of beauty is beautiful in itself. Why does it have to take on mythical properties, though?

 

[clem]

Try one of these:


http://www.ragweedforge.com/SwedishKnifeCatalog.html

 

[LawofThirds]

I think the main confusion is between the current incarnation of damascus which is primarily a decorative technique and the older, now nonexistent woontz (may be wrong on that spelling) or damascene steel produced in either india or damascus during the middle ages and into ~1700's. That one is no longer existent because the source of steel or the manufacturing technique (or both) has been lost. It is characterized by nano-tube crystalline structure which results in an incredibly hard steel that maintains flexibility.

 

[hso]

Hard flexible blades have have been around for a while and are available today from many smiths (look at the ABS testing requirements) and smiths are making "wootz" and have been for the past several years (Al Pendray, Rick Furrier, etc.).

Beware a single article or even a single author's work, it doesn't make a body of proof.

 

[JVoutilainen]

hso,

If modern alloys are superior in every way, why do many woodworking professionals still prefer carbon steel? Old high quality blades are very sought after. For example, best woodworking planes I have are hundred years old with blades made in Sheffield England.

As I said, I use damascus blades, but they are not "pretty" at all, since they have not been etched to show the pattern. If you put one under a microscope after sharpening and polishing no micro serration is visible.

This is not as straight forward an issue as it might seem. Material does not determine the quality or performance of the blade - skill and knowledge of the blade smith does. Furthermore, quality blade means nothing if the user does not know how to keep it sharp. I think this much is obvious.

About industrial applications. People keep bringing up this point, but is it really relevant? This should be about cutting performance of knives. There is absolutely no logic in comparing the performance of knives to blades used in mass production. How many knives have to perform well at 20000rpm and at 200 degrees celsius, for example?

 

[mete]

I might as well put my 2 cents in here !
Top of the line hand planer blades and chisels are made from A-2 ,hardly a simple carbon steel.As a kid I used chisels that were available but wished for a better steel like A-2.
Differentiate between damascus [ folded steel] and wootz. Wootz is being made by some but it is a very labor intensive process. Performance of damascus is very dependant on the steels used.Wootz is one steel throughout the pattern being due to the carbides not different alloys.

 

[JVoutilainen]

mete,

That is a generalization. What it comes down to is personal preference of the user.

 

[PX15]

FWIW:

I never thought Damascus was "better" than other steels, I bought mine because it's "purty" and I don't cut anything anyway.

My cc knife just clips onto my pocket until the time, hopefully never, when I run out of bullets and having a sharp knife in my pocket is better than just yelling "help"..

No offense,

Jesse