DIY Minimalist Retention Holster

[barnbwt]

1) I like the idea of minimalist holsters (basically a tube the barrel slides into which blocks access to the trigger guard)
2) I like the idea of retention holsters
3) I have some green kydex & rivets laying around from a kukri sheath project
4) The pistol in question is a Remington R51 (shaddup )

Choice of handgun aside, I think the concept of the holster has merit, and warrants exploration in general. Being new to carry in general, I'm familiar with the concepts of the various choices, but obviously only in a very general sense. I know enough to realize the particular design of the R51 requires some specific choices, though;

1) Retention must be latch-based, since the entire back strap is the grip safety
2) Muzzle area is fairly small due to barrel-centric recoil spring
3) The trigger guard is about half the length of the barrel, and the same length as the ejection port (so not much surface for the 'muzzle tube' to grip)
4) The ability to eject a chambered cartridge while holstered would be nice

My thoughts on retention are that there are basically two places a latch could be placed to keep the gun from sliding out; front edge of ejection port (it's really thick at about 1/8" on this gun) and the inside edge of the front of the trigger guard. Only one of those is on a non-moving portion of the gun, so I guess it's the trigger guard or nothing if I want to be able to rack the slide with the holster latched.

So the question then becomes how to release the latch? This is where I'm out of my depth and need some advice. Are button-type latches preferred, or those that pivot instead? Or swinging style? The latch will be placed just forward of the trigger guard (so a draw would leave my finger tip resting in the relief cut on the side of the front of the guard) where the holster will be most narrow. Nice thing about this idea is all guns have trigger guards, so the idea could be easily adapter to other handguns (assuming it hasn't been already)

Placing the latch so far forward would seem to render the holster unsuited to anything but outside waist carry, which is unfortunate, but I just don't see how a latch or switch further back could work without adding a ton of bulk to the gun --it's just too contoured & slippery behind the ejection port (even a strap over the rear of the slide looks like it would slide off easily). At least Texas just got Open Carry, so outside waist carry is far, far more practical than it was previously, concealed or otherwise.



It's worth mentioning that the only holsters I've seen available for the gun are basically pancake styles without retention. As slippery as the gun's contours are, I don't think relying on molded in shapes is sufficiently secure for my liking (especially for leather)

TCB

 

[MartinS]

Is there any holster maker that puts anything inside the trigger guard?

 

[JTQ]

Being new to carry in general, I'm familiar with the concepts of the various choices, but obviously only in a very general sense.

Do you have any holsters for this gun already?

I don't think relying on molded in shapes is sufficiently secure for my liking (especially for leather)

How much retention do you desire?

Of the several holsters I own (none for an R51, admittedly), all have provided what I like to call "wedgie level" of retention when new, where you are basically giving yourself a wedgie trying to get the gun out of the holster while on your belt. Most have been so secure you couldn't draw the gun without having the holster worn on the belt. Even at their loosest, they can be held upside down, and in most cases shaken vigorously, and the gun won't fall out.

I bring this up since many new to holstered guns, or those who's primary experience is with nylon holsters or with holsters such as the SERPA, seem to think the gun is held in place by gravity alone, which is not true of quality kydex or leather holsters. Can somebody wrestle the gun out of your holster if there is no retention device, probably. On the other hand, if you were an Olympic caliber gymnast, you could probably do a floor exercise with a gun holstered in a quality holster without an active retention device and it wouldn't fall out.

 

[JTQ]

If you're experimenting, there are several designs that use the trigger guard as the hold point, such as the Vanguard holster from Raven Concealment Systems.

RCS http://raven-concealment-systems1.mybigcommerce.com/vanguard-holster-system/

and the Zacchaeus from Dale Fricke http://dalefrickeholsters.com/product/zacchaeus-concealment-holster/

 

[barnbwt]

"Do you have any holsters for this gun already?"
Noop. The nicest I've seen are the Galco Stinger which is a molded pancake style (and kinda pricey last I looked), and a homebrew pancake some dude on Gunbroker made that looks decent. Neither are a retention style holster.

"How much retention do you desire?"
I'm looking for a mechanical latch, as opposed to a tension securement, simply because I have the 'belief' that it will be easier to draw, and still plenty secure against simple grabs or jostling. I have messed around with tensioned holsters for revolvers, and I dislike how forcefully the cylinder must be pulled through the thing.

And also to reiterate, the R51 is a highly contoured design that I suspect is less amenable to a tension setup in the first place. Apart from the ejection port and maybe the trigger guard, there really is no place to hold onto apart from mere friction.

I've attached an extremely rough sketch of how my idea might work. It's composed of two, maybe three pieces of Kydex, represented by the brown and red lines (colors are approximate as I'm missing some cone cells ).

The bold-font brown line around the front of the gun is the most molded piece, which covers the outside face of the pistol. It is shaped to hold the gun upright, cover the trigger guard, partially obscure the mag release, and restrict the gun to purely linear movement when fully inserted (straight out the back, only). It will have a tubular profile, and several tabs that wrap around the back to meet with the opposite face of the holster.

The thin-line brown line extending further back is the inside face of the holster, and could either be as large as shown --extending back to partially guard the grip safety-- or as small as the footprint of the outside kydex face. It is basically a flat panel (maybe bowed/domed) that resists flexing and attaches to the belt (probably a wide kydex strap). The true minimalist design would seat the gun on the belt such that the release button is just above the waist line where it can be readily pressed. This setup could be used inside or outside waistband, whereas a lower set configuration could only be outside.

The red spots at the trigger guard on the far side (in-side) of the holster, and are the latch. A single beefy kydex leaf spring, contoured at its tip to engage the trigger guard when fully inserted, and extending around the front of the holster to where my trigger finger can push it inward. Because of the trigger-guard relief on both sides of the gun, the holster is narrower on both sides, so the switch will be usable even if the holster is pressed up against my waist (I think)

In summary, the goals here are:
-Solid, mechanical retention
-Easy release, incorporated into the draw motion/hand placement
-Enables full purchase of the gun before release/draw, apart from thumb
-Craftable with my humble resources (kydex, oven, heat gun, fasteners)
-Muzzle end open, for easier cleaning (and silencers )
-Retains as small a profile as possible, while still firmly restraining motion of handgun

TCB

 

[Red Cent]

There are a few of us here who played IPSC long ago when you were tested with gun holstered either by doing a back roll or jumping off some thing about 4' high.
There are a couple of us who can build a very good leather holster that will hold the gun snug but allow a one second draw and fire.

They used to make the Chapman High Ride. A great looking full leather holster worn at 2:00 with a barrel forward rake that was very fast.

Just my opinion but the holster described seems complicated to fabricate. The worst concealed carry holster is the Serpa Level II. The best is the Serpa Level I. If you like Kydex.

 

[barnbwt]

I think it could be made with leather, too, so long as the inside panel remains stiff enough to push the latch against. I'm going with Kydex because that's what I have for a proof of concept, though a leather outer face could potentially look nice (and with some geometric tooling, look good with the pistol). Kydex is also really rough on guns when there is lots of tension present (the R51 has a soft aluminum frame, btw), so that's another reason to avoid clamping forces during this particular effort. A snugger leather one in conjunction with the latch would make for a very effective level II holster, I would think (well, assuming the latch idea works)

While not the primary reason, one of the reasons for a mechanical latch is so the gun can be snatched super easily if I wear it openly. By 'snatch' I more likely mean 'snag,' but the idea of the gun coming loose simply by pulling up on the grip is something that bothers me. Entirely possible after carrying a while, that I lose this perception.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Here's an idea I had, after seeing this little wonder someplace;

I do have a question about this type of holster, though; has anyone tried doing something similar, only using the belt itself as the outer face of the holster? Like, basically a stiff, contoured strap of Kydex/leather that holds the gun in place, and a wide, stiff outer gunbelt keeping it pressed against those aligning (or locking) features. Unlike the above holster, the trigger guard would be positioned directly behind the gunbelt, keeping it securely protected

Obviously, I'd have to figure out exactly how to attach the thing (I'm thinking flaps at the front/back that wrap over and around the belt, and are either sewn/welded or buttoned into a loop. Seems like construction would be exceedingly simple; basically just making a single half of a kydex holster.

The main drawback I see is that you obviously can't remove the holster with the gun inside it, which is less desirous for safety reasons. I suppose a relatively-thin layer of kydex could be applied to remedy this without increasing bulk very much. The other drawback is that draw-effort would vary to some degree depending on belt tension; I'm not sure how different this is than for other types of IWB holster concepts, though. Lastly, I suppose wear on the belt will be increased to some degree, but if made from a quality hide and sharp/rough gun profiles are avoided (the R51 is pretty smooth) I can't see it being much worse than the holster's loops causing wear, and it will be on the inner side, in any case.

TCB

 

[JTQ]

Here's an idea I had, after seeing this little wonder someplace;

You mentioned the desire for retention. I suspect the pictured holster would basically provide retention via gravity. There are lots of secure molded holsters, and that would probably not be one of them.

I do have a question about this type of holster, though; has anyone tried doing something similar, only using the belt itself as the outer face of the holster?

Sounds like The Beltster http://www.banderagunleather.com

I've not used one, but guys I respect that have used them have not been complimentary towards them.

 

[barnbwt]

Hmm, sorta-kinda what I'm going for, but I'm hoping for something a little more sophisticated than a pinch between uncontoured leather straps. Using Kydex instead of leather gives me a much better opportunity to get the orientation/securing features needed in a small packages.

Here's the "Remster" so far, basically an H-shaped piece of Kydex I progressively walked around the pistol with a heat-gun and my leathery fingertips. Gotta love Kydex; not many things in life give you a second chance, but this is one of them. Even if you scar or mark the Kydex, reheating it will basically raise the original texture by 'memory.' Yes, I'm fully aware that my yellow Agarita grips clash with the forest green Kydex. This is a prototype (the final article will be bedazzled ) and is basically hidden when worn, anyway.

The belt-flap portions are basically flush with the back-side 'elevation' of the gun, as opposed to stopping at its centerline like most holster clamshells. When I get further, I'll eventually warp them to follow my waist curvature. The round cuts are roughly where the top/bottom edges of the 1.5" belt will lie, and the tabs will wrap around to form belt loop (or be trimmed off so a button-flap or something else can be attached instead). A stack of business cards was used as the 'form' to shape the front sight blade tunnel, though I doubt it's actually needed (and a real pain to shape) since the gun tapers enough that the muzzle is sufficiently loose by the time the gun is drawn an inch or so.

As far as retention, I'm still feeling out how to do the latch/release exactly, but;
-I will have a button of some sort that sits just below the belt line, at the same 'elevation' as the belt (my finger will poke the underside of the belt and depress the button)
-The button will be the free end of a Kydex leaf spring attached at the dimpled area of the trigger guard (I decided against slicing the spring profile from the shell, since there's only ~2" of Kydex cross section as it is)
-A hole will be drilled at the front of the trigger guard dimple, and a Kydex tab on the leaf spring will poke through, latching the trigger guard.

Press the button below the belt, the spring bends toward the waist (into the hollow space where the gun tapers at the trigger guard) and the latch tab slides away far enough to free the trigger guard so the gun may be removed.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Got the tabs folded over into quasi belt loops (not trimming or folding them to final length, until I get a belt I'm happy with), and it seems to be both fairly comfy and holds the piece flat against my side. One slight wrinkle, is that with the open-faced holster design, it is very weak against bending, such as you get pulling it against the side of a waistline. This causes it to unfold and hold the gun less securely, so I've had to pre-bend the tabs to more or less match how the belt lies when pulled across the gun. A more traditional enclosed design would simply have its flat, outer layer pulled slightly taut.

Properly shaped, the pistol stays pretty well controlled against anything but a straight vertical pull/draw. But, even with a pronounced dimple into the trigger guard (3/16") the outer belt is so flexible that removal of the piece is definitely too easy, and even with a mechanical latching feature, twisting the pistol against the belt would slip it over any hook that might snag the trigger guard. So what I will do is flex a small portion of Kydex around both sides of the trigger guard, securing the pistol specifically against that type of twisting motion along the axis of the barrel, which should keep the trigger guard frame in position where it can be controlled with a latch (I'm now thinking using this wrapped-over portion to carry the paddle-latch on the outside face of the trigger guard might be a better scheme)

TCB

 

[MartinS]

Why tabs? You're making the belt part of the holster so go the final step and sew or rivet the body side of the holster to the belt. The holster is the belt and the belt is the holster.

 

[barnbwt]

By all means, punch holes in your 150$ Beltman strap to test out a prototype . I think I'll end up doing button snap fabric or leather loops so the holster can go through a pant belt loop to keep its position secure.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Progress?

-Need to replace the Kydex latch/spring with a metal version; it just 'creeps' too much (at least in Texas)
-Need to 'detune' the dimple that passively secures the trigger guard against the little 'finger' (independent of the mechanical latch), since retention is almost too good, now, and it's hard to keep the latch released while yanking the piece out
-On the next/2.0 version, the little finger will taper back down into the belt loop area (but under the belt)
-Replace Kydex loops with riveted/buttoned leather or fabric loops; the compound curves needed because they tie into the main holster make for a lot of needless difficulty
-Curl latch release up around belt just slightly, so both a push in and a push down will release it (may not be needed if the gun sits just a hair lower)
-Use something better than aluminum pop rivets for both the latch spring attachment and the plunger/pin that engages the front of the trigger guard
-Chamfer forward edge of ejection port (it's like a 1/4" deep sharp edged 'wall' on the R51, and needlessly so; I'll avoid this if at all possible, of course)

 

[barnbwt]

Some more progress, moving along like a glacier...I kinda wanted this thing ready by OC in Texas, but we'll get there eventually

-I'm adding an exterior cover plate mostly because of 'rough draft' issues, and because it will better protect my nice Beltman belt from the square corner of the ejection port. Ideally, I'd have positioned the belt such that the forward edge of the port sits higher than it does, and could not hang up on the edge of the belt when drawn. The 'open' trigger guard is simply due to the shape of the scrap Kydex I have on hand, and the final article would probably cover the area entirely (as does the belt)
-For now, I have two Kydex "flanges" on either side of the gun, which will attach the belt loops. I'm thinking leather loops for now, again out of concern for the belt (it will pass with time, I'm sure). Depending on how secure the holster feels on the belt, I may end up chopping off those flanges, and attaching the loops much closer to the gun; there will be a 'dead air space' on either side of the piece due to the belt riding over the top, regardless.
-Once the cover piece is attached, which should help stiffen up any play in the holster, I will get cracking on the latch & lever. The existing Kydex lever will be chopped down to form the latch (so a plastic surface is contacting the trigger guard rather than a metal pin) and a larger lever bonded to it which wraps around to sit just beneath the belt, to be poked by the index finger while drawing. As it stands, the gun snaps neatly in/out of the non-locking holster when under a belt.