Does CCW licensing serve any purpose for our safety?

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Lot of passion on both sides here, my view, ensure ALL states are made to be "must issue", THEN look to reduction of CCW licensing costs.

Like everything post Heller, we need to use the incrementalism model the anti's used that eroded firearms rights to strengthen firearms rights.
 
ShooterMcGavin said:
...Please correct me if I am wrong... it seems that, in your opinion, anything becomes constitutional (or proper, just, reasonable, etc.) based upon the courts' interpretation of that right...
Essentially, you're right. As a practical matter, as to what is and is not Constitutional, what the courts think trumps what a bunch of guys on the Internet think. Of course, sometimes lower courts make mistakes and get reversed by higher courts. And sometimes those higher courts get reversed in turn. And as far at the Constitution of the United States goes, the Supreme Court of the United States pretty much as the final say (just as do the highest courts in each state as to the state's constitution).

The way I look at it, in the real world the lives, property, rights and responsibilities of real people are actually affected by what the courts do -- not by what we on this gun forum think. What does it matter if we all agree that something is unconstitutional if the court doesn't agree and is sending a real live person to jail? So we're gnashing our teeth, rending our garments and pouring ashes on our heads blathering about how wrong that is, while someone is behind bars picking up soap in the showers for guys with no necks. And what if that person, by better understanding reality -- how courts work and what they are likely to do -- could have avoided that result?

That's one of the important reasons for understanding reality -- understanding how courts work, what they've done and what they're likely to do in the future -- it lets you make choices. It lets you make plans to avoid, or at least minimize the risks of, bad outcomes. It also helps you pick your fights.

One of the reasons we had to wait so long for Heller is that we were waiting for a case that would allow the Court to focus on the individual right issue and not get bogged down in a lot of extraneous matters. So we got a good decision in which Scalia wrote, point blank, "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes,..."

But one reason I'm so negative about fighting about the question of licensing the carrying of guns, is that, at least with respect to "shall issue" laws, that remains one of the least of our problems. Not only do I think that most courts will look at shall issue laws as a minimal intrusion on the RKBA and serving a compelling state interest, and thus likely to survive a challenge, but also we have far bigger fish to fry. Heller was wonderfully helpful, but we still have some very significant fights -- far more important than shall issue laws.

There is first the question of whether Heller will survive. We won by only 5 to 4 with very strong dissent. If Obama is elected President and significantly changes the composition of the Court, it could reverse itself. If that happens, all bets are off.

If Heller can survive, we still need a good Supreme Court case making the Second Amendment applicable to the states. There was a long tradition of the Supreme Court holding that the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights don't apply to the states. After the adoption of the 14th Amendment, courts began using the 14th Amendment to make piecemeal those enumerated rights applicable to the states. So until we get a solid court decision applying the Second Amendment to the states, the question is in doubt (at least in those states without a RKBA provision in their constitutions). (For more on this issue, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights)) . While I'm not a big fan of Wikipedia, this is a decent overview of this matter.)

Then we have the outright bans to attend to, like Chicago. There will also be the discretionary and may issue laws to be dealt with.

My training, and the way I earned my living for more than 30 years, has included knowing what courts have done, predicting what courts are likely to do, and helping clients make the best choice in light of that reality. And I know that courts will do what they do without regard to my personal opinions or those of my clients.

And courts will go right on affecting real people without regard to our feelings here (and that includes yours, goon, and yours, Shadow1198).
 
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soybomb, no one can prove that
I don't see any reason why can't. It should be a trivial matter to compile the relevant statistics showing that say people with permits in these states have accidents or incidents at a rate of x/1k people while people in the states with the most stringent training have them at the lower rate of y/1k people. Why can't this be done? We've got absolute mountains of data on concealed carry between all the years and states that allow it. I know somewhere I've got bookmarks to a couple states that even make that information very easily accessible online.

... infact in many cases there are laws in place preventing any studies to be done of that.
Please cite a couple examples of what you're talking about because I'm lost.

That being said, any one that thinks good( being the key word here)training does not make you safer has a blinders on.
No doubt quality training might make you more likely to come away alive, but the type of training and classes we're talking about probably won't make people safer. I know and follow the 4 rules. I'm not going to be pointing a gun to my head and pulling the trigger for a laugh at parties if I don't take the state mandated training class. Similar I've seen no evidence to suggest that the kind of stupid that leads to doing something like that is fixed by attending said class. I'm certainly open to being proven wrong with statistics and not feelings though. I just don't see the problem that needs to be fixed with licensing/training/testing. I hope your reply can show me a real problem with concealed carry that mandatory classes/training fixes and not just an imagined problem.
 
So here I am ...

So there I am sitting on the shoulder of a secondary highway looking at a road map etc. when the state trooper pulls up behind me to see what's going on. What's going on is that the state trooper keeps me there for over half an hour while he is checking me out every which way from Sunday. Uses the car radio, the walkie talkie, the computer, the cell phone, ad nauseum.

Now what's the point of my permit? I thought it was supposed to show that I'd already been checked out. If every stop means a background investigation why bother with the permit?
 
2nd

what part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED needs to be explaned.shall means must.
not may.notice your states licensing law.SHALL issue.
Mass has a may issue,and thats it,they dont if they dont want to.
what good is a ccw if the criminals dont have to get the license.every one should be able to carry.no exceptions.
and INFRINGED.what part not understood the I or the G.
the dictionary lays it out just because the socialists cant read does not mean
we cant. :uhoh::rolleyes::fire:
 
Posted by Elza:
I see what you’re saying. However, I have a far greater problem with getting permission to buy/own a gun than with a permit to carry one.

There are arguments that can be made for carry permits. There is, IMHO, no argument that can be made for something that restricts what I can buy or own.

You're preaching to the choir. :)

I don't like purchase permits either, which is why I got a CCP. I can walk in my local gun shop and walk out the same day with as many new handguns as I can afford, without any purchase permits and phone-in background checks.
 
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