First revolver? S&W 625. 45LC or 45acp

[mcb]

I would bet that the barrel on a S&W 625 in 45 Colt and a 625 in 45 ACP use exactly the same bore and groove diameters (assuming similar vintage, S&W has change barrel machining tech a few times over the years). I believe that size difference you commonly see is because 45 Colt more commonly uses a lead bullet and common practice is to over size lead bullets ~.001 over groove diameter hence the reported .452. 45 ACP which in predominately a jacketed bullet cartridge is list at groove diameter. But if you running a lot of lead you're probably going to slug the cylinder throats and barrel and make sure you got the right size. Also remember the 45 Colt was originally .454 diameter bullets though nearly all modern makers are using .451 groove diameter now.

I managed third yesterday in a revolver only "USPSA-style" match at my local club with my 625 in 45 ACP. I was less than 4% behind the winner a Master revolver shooter shooting an 8-shot custom 627 and second place was an un-classified (though GM in four other divisions) also shooting a 627 8-shooter. 6 stages, 75 rounds fired, total elapse time was slightly over 63 seconds with 7 reloads (two more than 1st & 2nd place) on the clock. The 625 in 45 ACP is simply a fun revolver to run.



ETA: A quick look over at SAAMI's website show that 45 ACP and 45 Colt have the same SAAMI specification for bore and groove diameters. .442 +.004 bore diameter and .450 +.004 groove diameter. Most manufactures hold tighter tolerance than SAAMI publishes and then tend towards a max material condition. I would bet that most manufactures are running the tolerance down to +.002 if not tighter.

 

[RealGun]

Those touting the Redhawk that shoots both 45 ACP and 45 Colt should be aware that owners are having issues with failure to fire with 45 ACP, because those cartridges headspace on the moonclip. The gun is actually chambered for 45 Colt, the longer cartridge.

 

[MikeInOr]

I looked up the moon clip removal tools... great idea. I have a dozen moon clips for my Webley that have empty brass in them because I got tired of fighting them. I will probably make a removal tool myself... the golf club idea seems like a good place to start.

I am a big fan of rubber grips. I have a half dozen guns with Hogue or Pachmeyer grips... both work nicely. As I am more about functionality than show I will most likely get rubber grips for the revolver. I really like finger grooves on the rubber grips, they give me better control over the recoil. I can shoot any of my guns with hard grips quite well... but I definitely shoot them better with rubber grips, especially follow up shots. I have big hands and the rubber grips do seem to fill my palm better.

I did look very seriously at the Redhawk 45 acp 45 Colt... Of the revolvers I have ever shot I have shot best with a Smith (686 I believe). Mainly due to the trigger which is what is pushing me towards the S&W. I know that Redhawks are heavier built the S&W but that isn't really what I am looking for.

I figured that a Pro Shop 625 would have a great trigger out of the box... it is good to know that even a Pro Shop S&W will need some trigger work for the trigger I am after. Maybe I would be better getting a production 625 since I will most likely have trigger work done anyway. For most all my guns I am not a trigger snob... especially carry guns where I prefer a heavier longer trigger. But for this revolver I would like a lite crisp trigger like my worked over 1911's for target work.

I did find the shop that will mill a 625 cylinder to take 45 acp in clips or 45 Colt. Looked interesting... not sure I want to butcher a brand new revolver though.

I appreciate all the replies!

 

[RealGun]

I looked up the moon clip removal tools... great idea. I have a dozen moon clips for my Webley that have empty brass in them because I got tired of fighting them. I will probably make a removal tool myself... the golf club idea seems like a good place to start.

I am a big fan of rubber grips. I have a half dozen guns with Hogue or Pachmeyer grips... both work nicely. As I am more about functionality than show I will most likely get rubber grips for the revolver. I really like finger grooves on the rubber grips, they give me better control over the recoil. I can shoot any of my guns with hard grips quite well... but I definitely shoot them better with rubber grips, especially follow up shots. I have big hands and the rubber grips do seem to fill my palm better.

I did look very seriously at the Redhawk 45 acp 45 Colt... Of the revolvers I have ever shot I have shot best with a Smith (686 I believe). Mainly due to the trigger which is what is pushing me towards the S&W. I know that Redhawks are heavier built the S&W but that isn't really what I am looking for.

I figured that a Pro Shop 625 would have a great trigger out of the box... it is good to know that even a Pro Shop S&W will need some trigger work for the trigger I am after. Maybe I would be better getting a production 625 since I will most likely have trigger work done anyway. For most all my guns I am not a trigger snob... especially carry guns where I prefer a heavier longer trigger. But for this revolver I would like a lite crisp trigger like my worked over 1911's for target work.

I did find the shop that will mill a 625 cylinder to take 45 acp in clips or 45 Colt. Looked interesting... not sure I want to butcher a brand new revolver though.

I appreciate all the replies!

The 625PC is the version with cut rifling, more compatible with lead bullets. My 625JM with ECM rifling leaded badly and definitely preferred jacketed. I will say that before I sold it and got the 625PC,, I never tried coated bullets in the 625JM. The 625PC has a shorter sight radius, because the barrel is set back against a 45ACP length cylinder. The 625JM instead uses a full length N-frame cylinder with the breech closer to the frame.

 

[mcb]

The 625PC is the version with cut rifling, more compatible with lead bullets. My 625JM with ECM rifling leaded badly and definitely preferred jacketed. I will say that before I sold it and got the 625PC,, I never tried coated bullets in the 625JM. The 625PC has a shorter sight radius, because the barrel is set back against a 45ACP length cylinder. The 625JM instead uses a full length N-frame cylinder with the breech closer to the frame.

Are you sure its an ECM rifling problem and not a tight throat problem? I have seem a lot of mixed reviews of the ECM rifling. Some swear it causes leading and others claim just the opposite. The ECM rifled barrels are smoother than cut rifling or button rifled barrels. I also believe the current crop of PC revolvers are button rifled not cut rifling. I don't believe S&W has used cut rifling on revolver barrels in a few decades. There is not many makers still using cut rifling. Its nearly all button rifling with hammer forge still hanging on for rifles and ECM growing in pistols.

 

[Master Blaster]

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/performance-center-model-625

"Deep Cut Broached rifling"

I have the 625 PC 2017 production bought used from someone who did not reload and did not like the recoil of the factory rounds they bought.
It shoots 200 LSWC with 4.0 grains of Bullseye very well. It also shoots Nosler jacketed match bullets very well with a full power load. I did replace the stock grips with Hogue wood grips.
I also own a 25-2. While the 25-2 is beautiful and has a great action It does not out shoot the 625 PC. The 25-2 has a distinct preference for Jacketed match grade bullets over lead. Get the 625 you will not be sorry. At current prices the 625 PC will be much cheaper than a 25-2, and it has a lifetime warranty should you ever wear it out.

 

[ATLDave]

Go check out the Smith & Wesson forum. The variability of throats and accuracy on the .45LC Smiths is legendary. Some are good shooters, some are not and require extensive reworking. In contrast, the "Model of 1989" 625's are often noted as some of the most accurate revolvers they ever turned out.

When I decided I wanted a moonclip revolver, I waited until a "Model of 1989" 625 presented itself and I grabbed it. It is, indeed, a nice shooter (even if I'm not always up to the task). Really fun to play around with.

And it doubles as a garbage disposal for all the wadcutters and hollow-points that don't feed well in my 1911. Some bullet profiles work, some don't... over the years of loading for the 1911, I have accumulated a few boxes of bullets that, regardless of how I load them, just don't want to go through JMB's machine. But the 625... it doesn't care. It eats them all!

 

[thomas15]

I did look very seriously at the Redhawk 45 acp 45 Colt... Of the revolvers I have ever shot I have shot best with a Smith (686 I believe). Mainly due to the trigger which is what is pushing me towards the S&W. I know that Redhawks are heavier built the S&W but that isn't really what I am looking for.

This is just my opinion but I think either way (S&W or Ruger) the serious shooter will want to do something post sale with the triggers. Ruger is trying to make some inroads with competition revolver shooters since almost all revolver shooters that compete use S&W. I shoot in a tier II SCSA match is past weekend and watched (from a distance) David Olhasso (Team Ruger) shoot a few strings with the new Ruger 8 shot. Just looking at the gun from afar it appears to be modified to better balance the weight. He is doing well with it but not as good as with his 929s. The rumors are that he has done a lot of tinkering with the trigger. I'm sure he will get them to sing just a matter of time.

I guy I shoot with has a new 686 pro 7 shot .357. The trigger on his is nice for a production gun. But the 686 in general has a hefty trigger pull. Just as a point of reference I personally only concern myself with DA triggers because in action shooting sports outside of Cowboy action only about 1 in 100 shoot SA and I know nothing about Cowboy Action shooting.

The thing that has to be said about revolvers especially new ones being sold today is the DA triggers are heavy out of the box. I have two 929s and a 686 that are 4 years old or newer and all of them had approx. 14 pound triggers. You can lighten them up some I think about 8 pounds and still use factory ammo but I have mine at about 6.5 pounds so I must use Federal primers...period. This means all of my ammo for those guns are handloads. I know some keep the heavy triggers but if you shoot 200 rounds in an afternoon it will wear you out. At least it will wear me out! So in my opinion if depending on how you proceed you may not gain any advantage by having a 45 LC ability in your new revo.

As I have mentioned in previous post here getting a nice shooting large frame revolver to shoot really nice is costly. Worth it though.

 

[mcb]

I stand corrected Master Blaster.

ALTDave, My 625 (Pic at the top of the page) is also a very well used (I am at least its fourth owner) Model 1989. It is by far the best trigger I have in any revolver I own. Double action is 8.5 lbs and the single action rivals most of my rifles at ~1.2 lbs though its difficult to measure since the trigger rebound always slaps my trigger pull gauge. One of its previous owner did or had someone do a spectacular trigger/action job. Tens of thousands of rounds probably helps smooth it out too.

I had my 610 tuned down so low that it would only work with Federal primers and at one point it was so low I would still get the occasional light strike with 40S&W and bullets under 165gr. I turned it up a bit so it would reliably light everything and its currently at ~9.5 lbs. I never found a heavy double action trigger hurt my double action shooting much. My current competition revolver is a 627 and it's running 10.5 lbs with no intention of changing it. It is my understanding that Jerry Miculek only tunes his competition revolvers down to about a 10lb trigger pull. I believe he might be able to our run a trigger that was set too light since the trigger rebound spring would have to be clipped or lightened slowing reset. I would rather have smooth than light in my double action triggers.

 

[ATLDave]

I think once you learn to shoot a DA trigger, one can probably manage a 10lb pull about as well as a 7lb pull. I mean, it's still a long and heavy trigger compared to an SA or even striker-type pull. And I totally agree about smoothness being more important. It's not easy, but it's also not that hard to learn to hold the sights pretty still while moving your trigger finger through a .5" arc against steady resistance. But every time you hit a bump or catch during that travel, the sights are going to bump around. Knocking out those bumps and catches, and the attendant sight jiggles, seems way more important to me.

 

[RealGun]

Are you sure its an ECM rifling problem and not a tight throat problem? I have seem a lot of mixed reviews of the ECM rifling. Some swear it causes leading and others claim just the opposite. The ECM rifled barrels are smoother than cut rifling or button rifled barrels. I also believe the current crop of PC revolvers are button rifled not cut rifling. I don't believe S&W has used cut rifling on revolver barrels in a few decades. There is not many makers still using cut rifling. Its nearly all button rifling with hammer forge still hanging on for rifles and ECM growing in pistols.

I am not going to do that leading debate again. I know what my experience was. Good question though. The throats on the 625JM were reamed for lead bullet diameters..

 

[thomas15]

It is my understanding that Jerry Miculek only tunes his competition revolvers down to about a 10lb trigger pull.

Maybe but I kind of doubt this.

If you check the results of this years Steel Challenge tier III matches held in the USA and make a list of the top 7 revolver shooters (combined OSR and ISR), I can say that I have dry fired 5 of those 7 shooters competition revolvers and have shoot 2 maybe 3 of them. In all of those 5 that I have first hand knowledge of, I can tell you for sure they have lighter triggers than my 6.5 pounder.

 

[ATLDave]

Maybe but I kind of doubt this.

If you check the results of this years Steel Challenge tier III matches held in the USA and make a list of the top 7 revolver shooters (combined OSR and ISR), I can say that I have dry fired 5 of those 7 shooters competition revolvers and have shoot 2 maybe 3 of them. In all of those 5 that I have first hand knowledge of, I can tell you for sure they have lighter triggers than my 6.5 pounder.

Miculek is reputed to care more about the trigger return keeping up with his finger than with the weight going back. The guy is an outlier in many ways.... he likes grooved triggers while most people like smooth for DA work, and he likes smooth grips while most competitive speed shooters want just about as much texture as they can get without losing all of their finger- and palm-prints. He's just an oddball.

Tiger Woods was also famous, at the height of this powers, for preferring clubs that few, if any other, pro golfers could hit worth a darn. Sometimes extraordinary performers are extraordinary just because they are doing the same things as everyone else 5% better; sometimes they are just doing things differently. When it's the latter, they often end up with equipment preferences that aren't in-line with "normal."

 

[thomas15]

He's just an oddball.

One of the stories I have heard is at one time he mounted a frame/grip assembly in his car next to the seat. When driving he would just pull the trigger over and over again to gain a perfect understanding of the double action trigger.

I agree with you he is different. I have tried and tried to duplicate his reloading technique and have given up.

 

[ATLDave]

Another guy like that is Eric Grauffel - probably a better pistol shooter than Ben Stoeger or JJ Racaza (in fact, both of them have said just that) or Bob Vogel (although one time Vogel beat him at a huge speed steel-shoot... which isn't Grauffel's game) or any of the other top shooters.* He does all kinds of odd stuff. He did an interview with the Firearms Nation podcast and it's an extremely interesting - almost discombobulating - listen.

* People who aren't pretty well versed in international shooting are often shocked to learn that the best action pistol shooter is a Frenchman. It's kind of a bummer as an American, to be honest.

 

[MrBorland]

Maybe but I kind of doubt this

I don't. Jerry's got power a'plenty in that trigger finger of his (see below).

Miculek is reputed to care more about the trigger return keeping up with his finger than with the weight going back

I strongly suspect the idea that his finger is so fast, he needs a stronger rebound spring so the trigger can keep up is a mix of BS and a little JM self-promotion. AFAIK, JM still hasn't beaten McGiver's 5-shot record, and McGivern was known to shoot stock revolvers. IOW, the stock trigger is perfectly capable of returning faster than JM's finger.

I do understand his rebound spring is stronger than stock, but I strongly suspect it's because he rides the trigger on the return. Normally considered a bad habit that leads to short-stroking when a lighter return spring is put in, but as mentioned, Jerry's got power to spare and does several things that ain't normal. Check out how he immediately short-strokes a Python in the video below (around 3:00)

 

[jstert]

highly recommend the ruger blackhawk convertible with two cylinders in 45lc/acp. add pachmayr grips and you are in shooting bliss. the mag is my 45acp speedloader. with 45lc if i haven’t taken care of business with 6 shots, 6 more won’t do me any good.

 

[RealGun]

View attachment 812785 highly recommend the ruger blackhawk convertible with two cylinders in 45lc/acp. add pachmayr grips and you are in shooting bliss. the mag is my 45acp speedloader. with 45lc if i haven’t taken care of business with 6 shots, 6 more won’t do me any good.

That grip is a personal choice, but 1) the gun looks better with standard, and 2) the gun should be allowed to buck when fired rather than come more straight back like a typical double action. When the recoil force goes upward, your knuckle doesn't get so much of a rap at the trigger guard.

 

[ClemY]

They are both good choices, hard to go wrong with either. I foolishly sold a 625 in .45 ACP. I do still have my 25-5 in .45 Colt, and have been intending to send it off to get cut so it can fire .45 ACP in moon clips as well.

I love .45 ACP and .45 AR in a revolver, but I wouldn't recommend getting a .45 Colt, which I also like, cut to allow .45 ACP. Get a second cylinder it available in .45 ACP. I have a 25-2 and 625 that I mostly shoot with .45 AR. I also have several .45 Colt NMBH's that have a second cylinder in .45 ACP that I had trimmed to allow the use of .45 AR. I mostly shoot .45 AR on the range. I don't like the idea of small charges of fast powder in the voluminous .45 Colt case.

 

[joed]

I owned a few S&W revolvers in .45 Colt. Had a MG and a 25-5, the 25-5 was the most accurate revolver I owned, the 625 was just OK. I sold the guns because I felt the .44 Mag was just a better choice. Also because needing a revolver at night I put some .44 Mag bullets in the Colt.

I do not have any plan to buy another .45 Colt but would love to have one chambered in ACP. Maybe some day.

 

[mcb]

I love .45 ACP and .45 AR in a revolver, but I wouldn't recommend getting a .45 Colt, which I also like, cut to allow .45 ACP. Get a second cylinder it available in .45 ACP. I have a 25-2 and 625 that I mostly shoot with .45 AR. I also have several .45 Colt NMBH's that have a second cylinder in .45 ACP that I had trimmed to allow the use of .45 AR. I mostly shoot .45 AR on the range. I don't like the idea of small charges of fast powder in the voluminous .45 Colt case.

Check out 45 Cowboy Special. Basically a shortened 45 Colt case with an internal volume very similar to 45ACP. Use 45 ACP load data and shoot it in your 45 Colt.

 

[ClemY]

Check out 45 Cowboy Special. Basically a shortened 45 Colt case with an internal volume very similar to 45ACP. Use 45 ACP load data and shoot it in your 45 Colt.

Cowboy Special is a very specialized case that won't work with my S&W 625. The AR case works just fine in all of my .45 guns with ACP cylinders.

 

[mcb]

Cowboy Special is a very specialized case that won't work with my S&W 625. The AR case works just fine in all of my .45 guns with ACP cylinders.

That was made in reference to the lasts sentence in you previous post, " I don't like the idea of small charges of fast powder in the voluminous .45 Colt case.". 45 Cowboy Special is the answer to that dislike and will work just fine in a 45 Colt 625/25.

As for a 625 in 45 ACP well moonclips and 45 ACP in the only "real" answer.
The fastest reloading revolver out there is a 625 in 45 ACP using full moonclips. 45 AR always feels like sacrilege to me.