FNFAL vs BAR

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SodaPop

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Compare and contrast these two rifles?

I'm familiar with the FAL, but I have never been in the presence of a BAR. Without comparing the 30/06 to the 7.62NATO, what are the mechanical differences between the two? I saw a DSA video on the FAL where they refer to some similiarities between the two.

Why was the BAR dumped and the M14 chosen? I know the BAR was never mass produced like the M14 was, but what was wrong with the BAR?

BAR vs M14?
 
There was nothing 'wrong' with the BAR, just a different type weapon than an M14/M1. BAR's are big, heavy guns, more like a modern Squad Automatic Weapon than a general issue rifle.
 
They do look a little bigger than a standard FAL or M14, but they had a 20rd box mag. The FAL and M14 were both 20rd box mag rifles. Both were general issue. I understand the BAR was the old school Squad Automatic rifle, but it was pretty close to the standard issue FAL and M14; wasn't it?

What was the barrel length and weight of a BAR?
 
Didn't the bar fire from the open bolt position? Kind of a dirt entry thing if so.

I am tired and feeling really forgetful so ignore this if need be. :p
 
They share gas operation and a tilting bolt.

The M14 was billed as a do-all weapon that could take the place of both the BAR and the M1 Rifle. The M14 really couldn't fill the automatic rifle position, but the BARs were old and tired, so I guess they went ahead and did replace them, well on paper anyway.
 
The BAR was a beast that weighed in at 18lb., while the FN-FAL weighed in at 10lb.
The BAR was utilized as a squad support rifle, while the FN-FAL was a general purpose battle rifle.
 
Why was the BAR dumped and the M14 chosen?
They were never competing for the same spot. The M14 was a replacement for the M1. The BAR was eventually replaced by the M60.

If there was something wrong with the BAR (and maybe the M14 too), it was that full auto guns with 20 round magazines don't make much sense.
 
A good read of the Collector Grade Publications book, "Rock in a Hard Place" is in order here. Unfortunately, I read slow and I'll have to get back with you if I'm wrong.

The BAR is a Squad Automatic Weapon. In fact, it is THE squad automatic weapon by which all others are judged. It was born of the desire for a single-man portable base of fire that could accompany infantry on charges. It was meant to provide 'walking fire' to keep the heads of the enemy down until the infantry was in grenade or even bayonet range. IIRC, there was even a belt-mounted cup that the BAR gunner was supposed to insert the butt of their rifle into to make hip shooting and walking while firing easier.

It was not and cannot be replaced with a the FAL, M-14, M-15 or any other would-be successor. The FAL is a derivative design. It takes much from the BAR including its magazine (modified) and its tilting bolt mechanism. The FAL turns the bolt over, but the design is similar. A closer look at both the weapons would turn in more similarities but I don't own a BAR.

The BAR was mostly select-fire. The M1918A2 was automatic only but the other models were all selctive fire. The 1918A2 also had a rate reducer that slowed the rate of fire down still more from about 550 average down to around 400 average.

As the son of a BAR gunner during Korea, I have a wealth of information on tap. Unfortanutely, the 70-year-old keg of info is at church right now. I can forward his opinion later.
 
The Original WWI BAR did not have a bipod and was intended for advancing fire. By WWII, it had acquired a new nomenclature (M1918A2), bipod, a heavier stock and foreend, and a dual rate full auto fire. And a new role, squad automatic. It is actually a misnomer to call it an automatic rifle; it is a light machinegun. The BAR was also produced under license in Belgium and Poland; both had quick-change barrels and selective fire.

The BAR was to be replaced in the squad automatic role today by the M15, an M14 with a heavy barrel and a bipod. The M15 was never issued in quantity. The M60 was never satisfactory in the LMG role, but today the M243 fills than niche.

The military BAR has almost nothing in common with the FAL except both are gas operated. The FAL used a medium stroke piston, with a bolt carrier and a downward locking bolt. The BAR uses a full-stroke piston and a unique locking system that locks the bolt extension into the top of the receiver. It can only function using open bolt firing, where the FAL can (and does) fire from a closed bolt in both modes.

I think that some confusion is due to FN using the term "Browning Automatic Rifle" or "BAR" for their sporting rifle. That has also been compared to the FAL, though that comparison also is not really valid. A couple of months back, Gun Tests made fools of themselves by confusing the two weapons and making idiotic statements about Bonnie and Clyde using a sporting rifle that was almost 40 years in the future.

Jim
 
Dieudonne Saive was employed by FN around 1928 to produce the FN version of the BAR. He had intimate knowledge of that rifle and went on to design the SAFN rifle and then the FAL. He borrowed heavily from the BAR in several design elements. Most interestingly, the FAL was designed to fire the 7.92x33 Kurz and would have made an excellent assault rifle.
 
Having shot both the FAL & the BAR in F/A, I can tell you that the BAR is vastly superior in aimed, automatic fire. The FAL is harder to control & gets REALLY hot after a burst.

The BAR is a dream, very accurate and easy to manage, it's just harder to pick up! :D
 
Well, my father had a few things to say. He said that he kept the gun on the slow rate most of the time but as the gun gummed up, he'd change to the high rate of fire and open up the gas port. Said that the guns he had were unreliable when dirty. In spite of what he'd heard about people taking the bipods off, he left his on as he can hit anything he could see with it mounted. He'd also never seen any belt-cup or stud to hip-shoot the gun. He just used the sling which put it right where he wanted it. When I mentioned semi-auto fire, he balked. He said that even though it lacked a selector, he could always get a single shot off if he wanted.
 
The BAR was, basically, a 20lb machine rifle. The type that you don't see around anymore.

It was not replaced by the M60; the M60 is a general purpose machine gun, that replaced the 1917 and the 1919. It was adopted to the manportable role, but the M60 remains a crew served weapon, whereas the BAR was an individual one.

Though the BAR and the FAL have a common lineage in many respects, the two aren't the same type of weapon. The BAR is meant to be used as a base of fire weapon, hence the heavy barrel. The FAL is a general purpose battle rifle.

There ARE heavy barrel FALs that have been adopted to the same role as the BAR. Like the BAR, they're limited to 20 (sometimes 30) round box magazines, and don't have quick change barrels. These are what I'd call "automatic rifles".

Now, the US didn't find a suitable replacement for the BAR until the 80s when it adopted the SAW. The saw fills the same role of automatic rifle, but is what I prefer to call a light machine gun, since it's belt-fed and fires from an open bolt. Like the BAR (and unlike the M60), it's an individual weapon, not a crew served one.

Back to the BAR. A full auto weapon with a 20 round magazine doesn't make sense? It made a lot of sense in two world wars. Back then, they didn't HAVE the select fire rifles we have today. And even so, the BAR's weight made it very controllable and accurate on full auto fire, something that can't really be said about the M14 or other designs. And at a time when most armies of the world used bolt action rifles, that machine rifle provided a significant advantage to the squad using it.
 
Compare and contrast these two rifles?
Differant animals, designed for differant purpses. The modern equivalent would be comparing and contrasting the M16 and M249 SAW.
A better choice wuld be (what some folks here have done) comparing the M14 & FNFAL.
The problems with the M14 varient intended for BAR-like duty (A1E2? A2? I forget, it's been a long time...) illustrate the issue: Even with the redesigned stock, bipd, and compensator, it was still too light to be used in full-auto mode.

Badger Arms:
Said that the guns he had were unreliable when dirty.
Hardly surprising, they can't ALL be 1911s! :evil:
He'd also never seen any belt-cup or stud to hip-shoot the gun.
I Could Be Wrong (don't tell the wife!) but I believe these were only issued WWI time frame, so far as I know when they went with the bipod they changed doctrine for use, and Walking Fire went the way of the cavalry charge...
 
Neither one is very accurate without a bi-pod.

For the record, even with an open bolt the BAR's trigger is smooth enough to let off single shots, and muzzle climb is a bear. Heats up something fierce, wiegs 26 pounds loaded and with the bipod and flashhider/sling etc.

Still, maybe my favorite military arm of all time. And a HOOT to shoot.
 
Technicalities aside, the M249 was considered by many to be the replacement for the M60. And while the M60 may not have officially replaced the BAR, it filled the niche left open by the retirement of the BAR. Why else do you think the M60 "was adopted to the manportable role."

Anyway, the point was that the M14 and the BAR were never competing for the same spot.

As far as capacity, I don't believe there are any successful modern designs (last 40 years or so?) for shoulder fired fully automatic weapons which have a magazine capacity of only 20 rounds. In fact, I think you could probably count on one hand the number of successful fully automatic rifle designs which were limited to a 20 round capacity. The few designs that tried this approach are either too small to be controllable, or too large to justify such a small capacity.

The FAL and the BAR are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head that had any kind of a service record. The M14 never really got off the ground. The M16 initially delivered with 20 rounders, but I believe that the standard issue is now 30 round magazines.

And, your comment is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say. It did make sense in the early part of the twentieth century because it was hard to make bigger box magazines that worked reliably and because there weren't any "small" belt fed designs. It quit making sense about the time the BAR was retired...
 
M60s (and now M240s) are still issued, right along side the SAW. The saw didn't really "replace" the M60 per se, at least not in the infantry. It did change the way the GPMGs were issued, however, and for support units, it has replaced them.

Also, until the M60 came along, infantry units were lugging around 1919s, tripod and everything, and it was those that the M60 was intended to replace. When the M14E2 didn't pan out, though, they infantry never got its new automatic rifle. They would've been carrying the M60s anyway, just as how they carry both M60s/M240s and SAWs today. Each type of weapon has its own niche.

At any rate, I think full auto fire on a rifle is generally useless, regardless of whether it's magazine holds 20 or 30 rounds. The FAL is more controllable than the M14, I understand, but I can't imagine either being especially practical.

However, the BAR wasn't a traditional rifle. As I understand it, off the bipod full automatic rifle was controlable and could be done with some accuracy. And, heavy as the BAR was, I think it was still lighter than an M1919A6.

Still, many countries considered the FALO (heavy barrel FAL, used as an automatic rifle) to be an effective weapon, as they were used by the UK, South Africa, Australia, Canada, Israel, and countless others. So, you could count the number of designs on one hand, probably, but given the widespread use of the FAL line, one design was used by some 90 countries. If that's not sucess, I don't know what is.

The thing about the SAW is, a SAW type weapon HAS to be chambered in an intermediate catridge if it's to retain it's light weight. CAn they make a belt fed machine gun in a full house rifle round? Sure! But it ends up weighing more than the SAW, because 7.62x51mm requires a beefier weapon. If they could make a belt-fed .308 that weighed less than an M60, MAG58, or PKM, they would.

So, if your standard rifle fires the 7.62x51mm round, and you want automatic rifles to support your infantry squads and supplement your MAG-58-style machine guns, a BAR-type weapon (like the FALO) might just be the ticket.

A better idea, to my mind, though, would be a modernized, lightened Bren-type weapon, using the FAL gas system turned upside down the wtih magazine on top, allowing for longer, 30 round mags without getting in the way of prone firing. The British did this with the .308 caliber Bren gun, but I'm thinking of a modern, lighter-weight design, possibly firing from a closed bolt (is open bolt really necessary on a non belt-fed weapon?). The Bren did have a quick change barrel, and with the 30-round mags could really lay down the lead if necessary.

Just a thought. In reality, for those reasons the Bren was probably the better automatic rifle, but you've got to give the BAR credit, since it as developed almost 20 years earlier.
 
There's another way to get the job done. The Germans and Americans tried their hand at a full-powered automatic rifle during the second world war.

The American gun was the Johnson 1941. This was a 15 pound recoil operated light machine gun/automatic rifle. This was upgraded and submitted for trials three more times as the M1944 and then the T40 and T48 belt fed LMG's. None were acceptable (politically or mechanically). The M-60 would eventually win this contest for a light crew-served MG. The two earlier Johnsons both fed from side-mounted magazines which is interesting for another reason.

The German rifle I mentioned earlier was also a side-feed gun. The FG42 resembled the Johnson LMG (not to be confused with the Johnson Rifle with a rotary magazine) only in weight, magazine orientation, and in-line design. It was produced on a limited basis and was considered too light and too loud for its designed purpose.

The rest of the story is that both of these weapons gave of themselves and live on today in modern American guns. The bolt mechanism of the Johnson is the same mechanism we see in the M-16 rifle. The Gas system of the FG42 was donated to the M-60 rifle. Interestingly, the feed mechanism for the M-60 was a direct adaptation of the one on the MG42 (yeah, don't confuse it with the FG42 which is a completely different design). Now don't even get me started on the lineage of the M249...
 
The FAL and the BAR are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head that had any kind of a service record. The M14 never really got off the ground. The M16 initially delivered with 20 rounders, but I believe that the standard issue is now 30 round magazines.
You're forgetting:
  • 1) HK G3
    2) Galil 7.62x51 (current Columbian issue, IIRC)
    3) SIG PE-57/AMT
    4) others?
 
SOF Mag once had an article comparing the BAR with an M-14, a G-3 and an FAL.

The target was a rock of about one meter diameter, out around 500 meters.

Only the BAR could be held on target for a full magazine of ammo.

Art
 
My dad has always told me that the "biggest guy" got the BAR.
I can still remember him saying this any time he talked about them:
"BAR.... 20 rounds, 20 pounds". :)
 
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