Going for my first nice scope need help

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CSestp

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Hey guys this is my first jump into a nice scope so decided show my ignorance again on the interweb. I have had a few nice but cheap scopes that I can normally hit 2 to 2.5 MOA at 500 with American Eagle 150 grain out of my M1A. I am currently in the middle of a build with my new AR-10, I am expecting to be close to 1 MOA at 1000 with reloads.

So that bring me to my scope question, which one????? Rather which brand? The only things I do know is that I'm wanting no less than 20 magnification, actual turrets to change E&W (Elevation & Windage), and a form of BDC (Bullet drop compensation). I do not have enough knowledge in scopes to know what size to go with or brand. I have about a thousand dollars to spend, but might be able to go a few hundred higher.
 
Scopes are a very subjective thing. Some people swear by one brand while others call them junk.

What are you looking for, specifically? Fixed-power high magnification benchrest type? Varible? First- or Second-Focal-Plane? Do you really know yet?

What is the most common use you plan on? Benchrest? Varmints? Big-game?
All that said, at your price point, I've heard and seen nice things about Vortex scopes...
 
Prone, Bi-pod, mostly target shooting with it. And have no damn clue what focal plane even is. So far as Fixed or Variable I dont really know, I have a 3-9 variable scope now but never take it off 9. I know there is a hell of a difference between 9 and 20 so once again couldnt really say. If I were to guess it wont come off of the highest setting.
 
For $1000 you can get a decent scope. Not absolute top of the line, but certainly good glass in a reliable tube with accurate and repeatable turrets.

I have a few comments here first. 1MOA at 1000 yards out of an AR10 is something that is going to take a lot of practice. Even if you're shooting a .243 with the highest BC 6mm bullets you are going to need to know how to shoot well to have anything close to that accuracy. The system may very well be capable of it but it takes a good shooter to bring it out. I'd worry more about getting time on the line, especially time with an experienced long distance shooter as a coach, over worrying about which optic to use.

As for the optic, there are plenty of good brands in that range. Vortex, as mentioned, has gained a pretty big following of late. I'm still on the fence simply because there are many well established brands in that price range that I have more faith in their long term sustainability. Not that Vortex gives me any reason to doubt them, but I have a feeling Leupold, Burris, Bushnell, and Sightron will be around for quite some time.

I'm a big fan of the Sightron SII big sky and SIII line. As soon as my C&R FFL comes in I'm going to order a Sightron SIII. Their turrets are slightly on the soft feeling side, but they track very well and the glass is very good. They are my favorite for the money. Leupold has an amazing reputation and rightfully so. Their glass may not be class leading but it tends to be pretty good and their warranty/customer service is flawless. Their custom shop also offers a lot to those wanting to change something.

Burris tends to be a bit overlooked but they make a solid scope with good glass. They have a very good warranty as well. Another solid option for the dollar.

Bushnell is one that gives me questions. Elite lines, especially the 4200, have been good. Recently though they did away with the names 3200 and 4200. I'm not sure where the current optics fall in the quality range between the two but a 4200 is something I wouldn't be upset to own. Only down side is they are a bit limited on adjustments and at 1000 yards you may be looking at needing a sloped rail.

Weaver makes some decent scopes for the money. Only worry with them that I have is that they change ownership often and each time they change hands the warranty typically ends. When others offer no questions asked lifetime warranties it is a big pause for me to spend money on one of their optics.

That price point doesn't quite get you to a nightforce which potentially would be the best option of the group. Very rugged, will take years of abuse, and good optics. Outstanding CS if you ever would need it.

The Nikon optics, especially the Monarch line, are good as well.

The SWFA SS scopes seem to have a great following. They have tons of turret travel. I have a standard 10x and it's a decent scope.

The options you want in the scope will depend on exactly how you plan to use the rifle. Some situations call for more magnification and others less. Sometimes a lighter scope is more of a benefit. Sometimes an adjustable magnification optic is needed and others the dependability of a fixed magnification is more important. Really you need to define the shooting the optic plans to be used with and then you can define the options of the optic and pick one from a quality brand from there.

Quick edit: I type too slow.
 
Several makers make 20x to 40x fixed benchrest scopes. They're pretty impractical for anything else, as field of view at those magnifications is miniscule, mirage effect is pronounced, and the slightest tremor will make your sight picture dance around.

Focal-plane refers mostly to whether the reticle scales to the magnification on a variable scope. First Focal-plane means your reticle will get bigger and smaller as you zoom in and out. Second Focal-plane reticles are more common, the reticle stays the same at all zoom levels. If you're using a rangefinding reticle, like a Mil-dot, it will only be accurate at one power setting.

Recently handled a Vortex Viper FFP 6-24x50, available with either Mil or MOA reticle and knobs for around $900. I was fairly impressed.
 
To shoot at 1000 yards, a bullet drop compensator will not be effective. A mil-dot style reticle will be best. You are going to have to learn how to calculate the drop of the round tailored for your rifle, read wind, spin drift, etc., at 100 yards. Shooting at 1,000 yards is more than just twice as hard as shooting at 500, there are more variables in play, and they effect the bullet much more.

A scope that tracks well is a must. A good scope to go with would be something like a Nightforce, Schmidt and Bender, Leupold Mk 4 LR/T, US Optics. But those will run in excess of $1500 (The S&B and USO will be $2k-$4k)

A good "budget option" would be a Vortex Viper FFP, as another poster said, they run around $1k

As drifter said, a scope with the reticle in the FFP would be ideal
 
It's hard to beat the performance and clarity of a Bushnell Elite for the price. You can still find 3200's and 4200's at Natchez Shooter's Supply on clearance prices. Bushnell cleared them out and now it's just called "Elite"; You can get a Burris Signature Select 3-10x40 at Natchez with a Ballistic Plex Reticle for $329; Burris discontinued the Sig. Select; Burris is struggling against the competition and they will be looking to cut cost big time so their next line of scopes will not be as high quality as the Signature Selects. They have brass erector tubes, dual springs, steel-on-steel click adjustments; and Natchez is the only place to find them at a price like that. Elsewhere they are still $459 up to over $500; If you just want a Burris 3-10x40 with a duplex reticle; $299; I just got one with the duplex. The glass is amazingly clear. I can't believe how bright the image is; But Bushnell ELite is just as awesome, and Leupold is making a great product. I just got my first Leupold a couple weeks ago, and I am highly impressed. It's worth going with Leupold just for the Alumina Flip-back lens covers! Leupold has an awesome looking duplex reticle also. So my recommendations include 3 scopes; Leupold, Burris, and Bushnell Elite; if you are looking to spend over $600 I don't know where to point you. The Leupold will cost you close to $500 or well over depending on your model. Oh yeah, there's also a Burris Signature Select 3-12x44 ballistic plex at Natchez for $359; If you do buy a Leupold; Natchez ships them for Free and you get two free gifts with them. I got a lens pen and threaded lens covers(not flip-back; they are $80) for free.
 
I missed the part where you had $1000 to spend. If I absolutely wanted to spend around a $1000; I believe I might go for a Swarovski Z3; which can be $839 or higher; depends on which model. I'd say you'd get your money's worth with Zeiss too. I haven't read about Kahles, but they are a high dollar scope and are supposed to be supreme; I think they are made in Austria; which is where Swarovski is made.
 
Check out SWFA's line of scopes. They are high quality units that are made in Japan, and are priced very competitively.

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-Scopes-C1719.aspx

The SS series offers more than the standard series, but I have found my 16x42 tactical to be more than adequate on my CZ 452. Granted, I have only used it on my .22 to 400 yards. However, there are others that use them on much larger and more powerful rifles and longer distances that are just as satisfied.

Good luck!
- TNG
 
CSestp,

You seem to be at the first few steps of a fun journey!

Here's a good starting point to get a bunch of information so that you can make informed, and therefore frugal, decisions. My advice is read, read, read, ask informed questions and read some more before you start buying up expensive gear.

First is Optics FAQ's http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=378812&nt=2&page=1

Next is Optics Selection for Tactical Shooting. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1938091#Post1938091

I started shooting in the 300 to 600 yd. range about a year ago and that has gone just fine. In my area that's about as far as is available without an overnight stay or grueling day trip.

"Success" at this range is a relative thing.
I can put rounds on target at this range with a 16" M-4gery and a 3X ACOG using the BDC reticle. Groups are minute of person, with 90 % of a 30 round magazine of Federal M-193 impacting somewhere on a full size silhouette target's abdomen/torso/head zone.

If I step up to my ultralight hunting rifle and commercial ammo with premium 150-165 gr. hunting bullets in .308 Win. with a 2.5-10 X 33 BDC scope the group shrinks to about 6-8". But, if I fire more than 6 rounds in a row I start to get vertical stringing.

Changing to my precision rifle and Vortex Viper PST 4-16 X 50 FFP Mil scale, I can put 6 rounds of .308 Win 178 gr. A-Max handloads into 2" at 600 yd if the wind and sun cooperate and I am having a good day.

To me all of the above count as "successful shooting"

My eventual goal is 1000 yd. shooting as well. So all of my equipment selections and load development has been toward that end. For now I am still challenged shooting at midrange. Maybe by the end of this Summer I might do a road trip to the nearest NW PA 1K range.
 
If you want to try something different, IOR Valdata is really good, as are Russian Pilads. I've got a Pilad 4x32 that's superb glass and I'm extremely happy with. Because of the obscure brands, you can sometimes find them cheap. Sometimes.
 
I've always beeb impressed with Zeiss and Nikon. For me they just seem brighter and more clear in low light. The Zeiss Conquest line is within your price range but I don't know if that line has a scope to meet your specifications.
 
In that price range, the Vortex viper PST ffp would be my choice. The reticle selection of the bushnell, and lack of zero stop makes them a non-starter for most.
 
Over this past year, I ran two optics on my Savage 10 FCP HS-Precision.

1. Bushnell Elite 4200 FFP 6-24x50 mil/mil

2. Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16x50 mil/mil

The Bushnell was my first purchase and it did everything it needed to do. At the time I was using it, the one thing I liked the least was its somewhat limited adjustment range for elevation and windage. Also, some idiot decided the all the turret markings should be done in dark green. Ever try to see dark green markings on a black surface? :banghead: I caught it on close-out from Midway right after Bushnell announced they were discontinuing the 4200.

I decided to replace the Bushnell with the Viper PST. Wow...no comparison in my opinion. The glass quality on the Viper PST was much brighter and clearer. It also provided more turret adjustment and I could actually read/see the markings too.

Having used both on the same rifle, I would not recommend the Bushnell to a friend. The Vortex Viper PST is a much better optic and the price is not that much more.
 
I appreciate the desire for 20 plus magnification but on even a warm day that can become useless pretty quick.

Definitely take a look at the mil dot reticles or one with a mil dot style of ranging.

I am in the same boat and am looking at a Swarovski 4-14. They have an outstanding reticle set up.

Also take a look at a Leupold in the Mark 4 Series. In the $1K class they are pretty decent, have the turrets you are looking for and will usually come with a mil dot reticle. They have excellent return to zero using the elevation turret.

Welcome to scope snobbery!!
 
Coltdriver said:
I appreciate the desire for 20 plus magnification but on even a warm day that can become useless pretty quick.
Click to expand...
That's why its so important to have a FFP reticle. The power ring becomes irrelevant. You set it wherever it needs to be to provide the FOV and clarity you need. Reticle subtends correctly at all powers, so it can be used independently of any other considerations.

The leupold mark 4 (or any other leupold) is a lackluster product in the price range. Much better options for less money. The vortex pst is WAY more scope than the mark 4, at a much lower price point.
 
Although I'm a Leupold only guy, Vortex is making some real nice glass too. But on a more serious note, 1 MOA at 1000 yds., really? Start at 100 yds. with a good coach, and when you consistently shoot sub MOA at that distance, go out to 150 yds, 200 yds. and so on. Your going to quickly discover that 200 yds. is much further away than you thought.
 
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