H&R Top-Break Issue

[Swing]

So, I recently won at auction an H&R Top-Break revolver in .38 S&W. It is blued with pearl grips. The auction listed it as having only been fired about 20 times, in perfect mechanical condition, with a pristine bore, and no rust.

Anyway, it finally gets to my FFL today. The no rust business was bullplop, as there was some. Bore looks great. The little I worked the action whilst waiting on the transfer approval seemed solid. Then I took it out on my home range with new, factory loaded, .38 S&W cartridges ....

Cylinder one, single action all five shots, no problems.
Cylinder two, double action all five shots, no problems.
Cylinder three, single action, first round the hammer does not stay cocked, bang!, hammer driven into my thumb, and blood splattered on the hammer and grips.

Now the single action mode does not work. Naturally, I'm pretty annoyed. Questions:

• Any theories on what is mechanically amiss?
• How hard to fix?
• If you were in this situation, what would you ask of the seller? (I have a message into the seller and the auction company, but I haven't heard back as of this writing.)

Thanks all.

 

[Jim K]

Failure to hold full cock could be dirt or a broken sear spring, broken or worn sear, broken or worn hammer notch, etc. Without pictures or more information, it is impossible to determine if the gun is an old one with flat springs that break from a hard look, or a more modern model. Old H&R revolvers are difficult to obtain parts for, and hard to find a gunsmith willing to work on them since the frustration factor is high and few customers are willing to pay a repair cost that could exceed many times the value of the gun.

I hope you will resolve the problems to your satisfaction, but frankly, an H&R of uncertain age is not a good bet for a gun to be used.

Just FWIW, I recently bought at a low price an old S&W double action breaktop. The finish, originally nickel, is almost gone, and the whole gun is splotched with rust. The rest is "patina". Well, I finally got a chance today to check it over and clean out the crud. That gun had probably never been fired! Outside it is trash; inside it is like new. I may keep it and if I need a carry gun, well why not? That one is as solid as the day it came out of the S&W plant.

Jim

 

[Swing]

Thanks, Jim, for the response. My wife has the good digital camera now, but I will take pictures when she returns on Monday. Beyond the externals, what what shots would help?

I have not disassembled it yet as I wanted to see what the seller had to say. Well, he's suddenly dancing and telling me things contrary to the auction listing. Frankly, I think he is a liar and knew darn well the condition, but listed it otherwise. I've left negative feedback and filed a complaint/request for assistance with the auction house because there are now too many disconnects between the text of the auction and what I'm hearing now.

Anyway, thanks again. If anyone else has some thoughts, I'm all ears. Cheers.

 

[Swing]

One other tidbit that might help diagnosing the issue: if I put it in half-cock, then slowly cock it the rest of the way, it generally stays cocked. If I do so in the normal/fast manner, it always fails. The sear isn't catching inside the trigger.

Does that tell anyone anything?

 

[Jim K]

Another example of why I never buy sight unseen from an unknown seller. While I am sure that most "on the net" transactions go OK, I have known many that did not. When that happens it is about impossible to do anything, since the recipient would have to file suit in the shipper's state, and the amount you could get back on an H&R would likely be a lot less than the cost of retaining a lawyer.

Jim

 

[Swing]

I've bought a lot of guns via the web since around the turn of the millennium. I'd say 98%+ have been flawless transactions. One percent had some hiccup or another, but nothing to get huffy about. The remaining one is something like this.

Anywho, back to the original topic, any thoughts on the mechanical question?

 

[Old Fuff]

In my view Jim is 100% right... Again.

The first thing that is necessarily is to identify the gun. H&R made .38 top-break revolvers from the middle 1890's to shortly after World War Two.

One important clue might be, when the hammer is down at rest can you rotate the cylinder or is it locked? Answer that and we may be able to go forward.

Under no circumstances should you try to shoot it until it's age is determined.

 

[Swing]

Old Fuff, I can take pics tomorrow. What I can tell you now ...

• It is marked with a caliber, unlike the early guns which were not so marked. The marking reads "38 S&W. CTGE."
• The top of the barrel reads "Harrington & Richardson Arms Co" <line break>"Worchester, Mass U.S.A."
• The serial number is six digits with no alpha code. It is 405XXX. The serial number is located on the butt of the revolver
• When the hammer down, the cylinder can be turned, with a little bit of a "drag" whilst doing so.
• The finish is blue and the grips appear to be real pearl.
• Mechanically, other than the aforementioned hammer issue, seems to be solid.

Hope that helps.

 

[Old Fuff]

This probably isn't necessary if you are going to post photographs, but another important clue would require removing the grips - which probably are genuine pearl - so be careful.

Anyway look at the mainspring. A coil spring indicates that the revolver is safe to fire with smokeless ammunition if it is otherwise in sound condition. A flat mainspring would indicate earlier production that would make it unwise to shoot.

If it has a coil mainspring the cylinder shouldn't rotate when the hammer is down and the trigger fully forward. If it has a flat spring the cylinder will rotate.

 

[fireman 9731]

I would inspect the internals and see if they are gummed up. A good cleaning can go a long way on an old, malfunctioning gun.

 

[Kaeto]

Fuff the caliber marking on the barrel is a quick and dirty method of telling if an H&R is smokeless safe.

 

[Old Fuff]

Fuff the caliber marking on the barrel is a quick and dirty method of telling if an H&R is smokeless safe.

Sometimes. But without a picture and more information the Old Fuff is cautious. Sometimes with these revolvers you find that a barrel swap has been made. Also the O.P. says that he can rotate the cylinder while the hammer is forward at rest. This shouldn't be the case.

 

[Kaeto]

I can rotate the cylinder on my pair of H&R Safety Hammerless with the trigger at rest and they are smokeless safe.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Kaeto,

The reverse "L" shape of the cylinder stop notches indicates that both those revolvers should have the automatic ("independent" H&R called it) cylinder stop which prevents the cylinder from rotating either way with trigger at rest.

That feature is not really related to the smokeless/black powder issue, as it predated the strengthening of the cylinder and barrel for smokeless powder.

Jim

 

[Kaeto]

I've got to replace the trigger return spring on both of them so that may be affecting the cylinder stop.

 

[Swing]

Fuff the caliber marking on the barrel is a quick and dirty method of telling if an H&R is smokeless safe.

That has been my understanding, since forever, on these H&Rs. No caliber marking equals blackpowder (smokeless is majorily no bueno), caliber markings equal smokeless (possibly bueno, depending on condition).

Sometimes. But without a picture and more information the Old Fuff is cautious.

My wife was in a car accident this morning, so I couldn't take pictures. She's fine, but the car is totaled. It has been a hellacious day.

On the way out of town, I also dropped the revolver at the local gunsmith to correct, as it was in my briefcase. He examined it and said it should be an easy fix. I can take pics when it is back. There are some on the auction, but they aren't the best. I am also not sure of the copyright of reusing such content, though I doubt it would be a problem.

Sometimes with these revolvers you find that a barrel swap has been made.

Visually, I see no indication of that, though it would be worth knowing more.

Also the O.P. says that he can rotate the cylinder while the hammer is forward at rest. This shouldn't be the case.

Out of curiosity, why do you say so? Some of these H&R revolvers do so by design. Beyond the H&Rs, so do some other revolvers from, roughly, that time period.

Beyond that, based upon the serial number, markings, etc., I checked some resources on this one. From the research I've done on the markings, this one was made between 1919-1941 and was designed for smokeless cartridges.