Help me choose a CQ rifle: Tavor X95, LMT LM8, or Hybrid DD/LMT

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Gridley

Gridley

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So, I’m looking to get a close-quarters rifle and would like some advice/suggestions.

I currently own a Colt Match Target (20” heavy barrel, fixed carry handle, classic hand guard, Burris AR-536 optic). She’s a lovely precise instrument and a lot of fun to shoot. I’m keeping her, but, let’s face it, she’s not ideal for CQ.

I’m looking at three options for rifles and a world of possibilities for optics.

The rifle will be chambered for 5.56NATO, have ambidextrous controls (I’m a lefty, my wife isn’t), a 16-16.5” barrel, a vertical fore grip, sling, mounted tac light, and flip-down BUIS. Some of that will be aftermarket add-ons. Max engagement range expected is 300 yards or so, point-blank work is possible.

Option 1: Tavor “X95” (XB16L)
https://iwi.us/product/tavor-x95-5-56-nato-w16-barrel-lh/
I’ll need to either find the LH version somewhere or send a RH to the manufacturer to get a new bolt (on the plus side, their website says if I do that they return the original bolt along with the rifle and it’s a fairly quick swap out).
Pro: short overall length, center of mass closer to body.
Con: despite ambi controls, can’t really be considered RH-friendly once converted.

Option 2: Lewis Machine and Tool LM8 with the BC upgraded to their Auto (L7Q3A) BC.
https://lmtdefense.com/firearms/lm8
Pro: I like the one-piece upper and the adjustable 3/6/9 o’clock rails. The QC barrel is also nice.
Con: MSRP about $550 more than Options 1 or 3

Option 3: Daniel Defense V5 Upper & LMT MARS-L lower.
https://danieldefense.com/upper-receiver-groups/mid-length-urg/daniel-defense-m4-urg-v5.html
https://lmtdefense.com/parts/m7lb2z
Pro: mid-length gas system
Con: mixed manufacturers (yes, I know this *shouldn’t* be a problem, but I deal with complex precision interfaces at work and I’ve seen problems all too often)

I’d be particularly interested in the experience of people who’ve mated a DD upper or LMT lower with parts from another manufacturer.

Optics:
I’m leaning towards getting a reflex sight for true CQ and also mounting an optic with some magnification for medium range. I’ve been satisfied with the Burris but I’m interested in trying something different. Note that since I’ll have the reflex sight the other optic need not go all the way down to 1x if it has variable magnification.
I’m figuring to pay somewhere from $700-$1,200 for the optics. (MSRP; obviously I like sale pricing)

Thanks!
 
Shoot, just buy another Colt. The M4 Monolithic (one piece upper) gives you an almost true free float upper, and M4 barrel spec etc. The add ons you mentioned can be, well, added on.

Oh, if you go to the Colt website, they call it the M4 Monoilithic. Evidently they haven't viewed their own website lately (I might call them in the morning).

Sight? I like the Trijicon AccuPoint with the 12.9 MOA green triangle reticle. I am led to believe that is being discontinued, and they offer an AccuPower which is battery powered instead of fiberoptic/tritium.
 
Interesting. The text on their website says the lower is ambi, but the pictures show a standard RH setup (no LH mag release, for example). Assuming the text is right, that does check my requirements, and is notably cheaper. Anyone seen one up close and personal?

Edit to add: looking more closely, two models of the ACC-M are shown; one is Safe-Semi-Burst and the other is Safe-Semi-Auto. Pretty sure I can't buy one of these as a civilian. :-(

Does Colt make a semi-auto ambi lower/rifle?
 
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Try to shoot a tavor a few times before you buy one. Not sure if you will find that you love it vs a nice ar15 carbine

I have a DD v11 and it is awesome, way better than the std m4 that Uncle Sam buys (by better I mean accurate, easy to handle, get on target etc)

I would not hesitate to depend on a DD, lmt, Colt, barret or any of the other fine manufacturers of ar15’s. I would put 500rds or 1000 rds through the rifle before i make it the go to gun, but that is me. I also keep my bump in the night guns clean and well oiled. To make the choice, go pick up a few,

For optics, you have a great budget, I think you should decide if you want a scope or a dot.

Have you used a 1-6 or 1-8 scope before? They go to true 1x but most tend to have some image distortion inside a house (10yds or less)

For a cqb specialty rifle, I would go red dot (aimpoint for the battery’s life)
For a range rifle or general purpose I would lean more toward a scope with the Burris xtrii 1-8 being my choice in your price range or
Just a red dot,

A good red dot with a 1moa or 1 moa dot can be very accurate and they are perfect for close in, fast shooting
 
2, 3, 1 would be my preference. I think the AR15 platform would be your best bet. Maybe consider a sbr for close quarters
 
z7 said:
Try to shoot a tavor a few times before you buy one. Not sure if you will find that you love it vs a nice ar15 carbine
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Sadly, no one near me seems to have one. :-( I've read some reviews that give me enough confidence to try, but yes, I'll be putting ~500 rounds of assorted types through any of these before they become a "go to" weapon.

Everready73 said:
Maybe consider a sbr for close quarters
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I've considered a SBR, but I'm not a fan of the extra federal paperwork and restrictions. That is, however, one of the attractions of the X95; it has the full-length barrel but a short LOA. I seem to recall reading somewhere that IWI-US put a thicker butt pad on their model in part to ensure the LOA didn't make it a 16" barrel SBR!
 
Get yourself a 5.56 pistol with brace. I got a Sig PM 400 and added an additional 7.62x39 upper from Hardened Arms. Both uppers wear a Trij RX30 red dot. Sig doesn't offer these anymore but you can sure find a bunch of comparable options. Note that these are pistols, NOT SBR's, so they are open to the same carrying restrictions as your basic revolver and require no additional paperwork or fees.

mk18_pistol_sb_brace_l_webimage.jpg

https://danieldefense.com/firearms/daniel-defense-mk18-pistol.html
 
+1 on the pistol with brace if you are open to a 10” barrel. You lose velocity, but the maneuverability and portability makes up for it
 
Option 3, without hesitation. My unit used DD uppers on Colt lowers, and had zero issues- typical of putting well-made uppers and lowers together, and the LMT is just fine too. For an optic, I would look at one of the Vortex 1-6 or 1-8, Very reasonably priced, lifetime unconditional warranty.
 
As far as being "ambi", remember that about 11% of the population is lefty. That means about 11% of the military is lefty. The military doesn't issue lefty rifles, or ambi rifles (except the M110 SWS). The lefties do just fine with righty rifles. The only thing I will concede on the matter it that it is a grave dis-service to everyone in the US mil that the rifles aren't fitted with an ambi safety/selector, not only for the lefties, but also for the righties that sometimes are forced due to various circumstances to fire lefty, and for both groups to be able to do so in a rapid, safe, and efficient manner. We installed them on our weapons issued to lefties, with absolutely no authorization whatsoever to do so, but not everyone in every unit can get away with that. In addition, every M16, M4, MK18, MK11, and variant thereof should also be outfitted with an ambi sling plate on the buffer tube, which we also installed. JMHO.
 
FL-NC said:
As far as being "ambi", remember that about 11% of the population is lefty. That means about 11% of the military is lefty. The military doesn't issue lefty rifles, or ambi rifles (except the M110 SWS). The lefties do just fine with righty rifles. The only thing I will concede on the matter it that it is a grave dis-service to everyone in the US mil that the rifles aren't fitted with an ambi safety/selector, not only for the lefties, but also for the righties that sometimes are forced due to various circumstances to fire lefty, and for both groups to be able to do so in a rapid, safe, and efficient manner. We installed them on our weapons issued to lefties, with absolutely no authorization whatsoever to do so, but not everyone in every unit can get away with that. In addition, every M16, M4, MK18, MK11, and variant thereof should also be outfitted with an ambi sling plate on the buffer tube, which we also installed. JMHO.
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As noted, my current AR is a RH, and I'm keeping it. Because yes, I can run it just fine.

If you can get me half a dozen legal select-fire rifles and a pair of squad automatic weapons (oh, and last I looked a pair of M203's with ammo), plus find half a dozen folks to run around with me, I'll cheerfully use a RH weapon, even without the ambi selector. Heck, I'll have a big smile on my face. One guy in a squad being a little slower to reload isn't a big enough problem to justify the logistic headaches of special weapons. I don't have a squad. I don't have automatic weapons, explosives, artillery support, or armored vehicles. At best I've got a fire team with no support weapon and no backup.

I'm also planning to use hollow points and polymer tip, not FMJ. Well, OK, I'll be shooting a lot of FMJ for practice. :)

"The military manages just fine" doesn't mean its the optimal choice for civilians.
 
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If doors and hallways enter into your equation at all, you'll find not even an SBR or the AR pistols will match the bullpup for ease of use. Of course it's not as handy to switch shoulders with, but with the Tavor it's still doable.
 
I would say LMT or DD, leaning towards the LMT. Although I might go with a MRP rail if money allows.
 
sabbfan said:
Have you considered the Beretta ARX? I don’t own one, but they are fully ambidextrous.
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Honestly, I didn't look at Beretta at all. For whatever reason they haven't been on my "upper tier" list for AR manufacturers. Glancing at the specs... looks like I should add them to the list. "Ambi case ejection selector"? That's cool, though I have to wonder about reliability.

Anyone have experience with one?
 
If you are willing to spend Tavor or LMT money you might want to give a serious look at the Knight’s Armament SR-15 E3 Mod 2.

I bought one recently and aside from damage done to it by the idiot FFL that I had do the transfer, it has been very good. Upper is back at Knight’s awaiting a repair to the rail since the ***** who received it let their other customers play with it and evidently one of them tried to instal an M-Lok accessory incorrectly, and aggressively.

At any rate you get either a 14.5” (need an SBR since KAC doesn’t do pin and weld on their muzzles) or 16” (what I went with) carbine that weights about 6.5lbs. Fully ambidextrous lower. Cold hammer forged, chrome lined barrel with a 3 prong flash hider and suppressor mount. Free float hand guard that is also the barrel nut resulting in a very rigid fore end. The hand guard on mine is a 14.5” long M-Lok version, with slots at 3, 6, and 9 as well as on the 45* sides with built in QD sockets at near the receiver end. The lower has an end plate with built in QD sockets as well.

Included is a very good 2 stage match trigger very similar to a Geissele in how the sere is set up. The KAC unit has been either nickel plated or hard chromed. Either way even though I’m a hopeless Geissele fan-boy I will be leaving the KAC trigger where it is. No upgrade needed.

They also ship the rifle with the KAC back up iron sights, the front is adjustable without tools for elevation, the rear of course is adjustable for windage and has a ballistic cam drum elevation adjustment from 200 to 600 meters.

Plus the carbine ships with:
1.) A hilariously detailed manual (flip out schematic diagrams for each of the upper barrel lengths offered).

2.) An ingenous locking device that locks the magwell, bolt, and upper and lower. Plus a padlock to lock the device.

3.) M-Lok rail panel covers. Made by Magpul.

4.) KAC aluminum 3” M-Lok to Picatinny rail adapter if you need rail on one of your M-Lok areas.

5.) Two good quality QD sling swivel mounts to interface with the QD sockets they put all over the carbine.

6.) One Gen 3 Magpul PMag 30 round magazine.

7.) Nice Magpul butt stock and pistol grip.

Do understand that the KAC uses a proprietary bolt and barrel extension, and a proprietary gas system length, gas tube, and gas manifold. These changes were to my understanding Eugene Stoners last refinements to his platform.

It’s a very very soft shooter, and was showing nice accuracy potential with 75gr Hornady BTHP ammo.

Essentially for a not insignificant amount of money, you get a very well outfitted, highly refined carbine with real iron sights, and all the accessory hardware you need other than more magazines, an optic/optic mount of your choice, sling of your choice, and a scout light.

For optics there are a ton of good choices. A Geissele or Scalarworks mount and optic bundle are both an easy solution in your budget and top quality. Something like an Aimpoint Comp M5 on a Scalarworks LEAP or Geissele Super Precision Mount would be the hotness for a red dot setup.
 
I can’t verify this is available, but certainly worth looking in to; why not call Rock River Arms and find out if they will sell you a LEF-T in pistol configuration or as stripped receivers plus necessary proprietary parts? I don’t know the legality behind buying one complete (only offered on their site in rifle configuration) and swapping barrels/receiver extension/brace so I’ll leave that alone-my WAG would be once the 4473 is filled out, that sucker is forever tagged as a dedicated rifle.

That would offer you the controls where you want them without the compromise of “not completely left hand unfriendly”. It would also leave you enough for a carbine or pistol for the wife if you shop carefully. I always prefer having my own rifle over sharing, particularly when it comes to LOP, scope POA, and in the case of ARs, sling location. All of that can be swapped in a few minutes time, but that sort of defeats the purpose in my mind of having a dedicated CQR.

I’d run a fixed front HK style, flip rear with an RDS for this sort of set-up.
 
Gridley said:
Sadly, no one near me seems to have one. :-( I've read some reviews that give me enough confidence to try, but yes, I'll be putting ~500 rounds of assorted types through any of these before they become a "go to" weapon.
Click to expand...
I have a flattop non-X95 Tavor with a Bushnell 1-4x AR-series optic that I *really* like (I actually chose it over the X95 because I like the original mag release better). It isn't as accurate as a 16" AR in my hands, and you need a really high optic mount (and practice to adapt to the much greater optic height over bore), but it is a great little rifle, and much handier inside my smallish 1941-built home than a 16" AR. It is also a lot easier to manipulate and (in a pinch) shoot one-handed than an AR is, which in my view is a plus for a HD carbine, and the weight distribution is IMO perfect.

But definitely try before you buy; perhaps you could ask around in the Tavor section of the Bullpup Forums. I like the layout, but not everyone does, and it is bulkier than an AR in width.

I've considered a SBR, but I'm not a fan of the extra federal paperwork and restrictions. That is, however, one of the attractions of the X95; it has the full-length barrel but a short LOA. I seem to recall reading somewhere that IWI-US put a thicker butt pad on their model in part to ensure the LOA didn't make it a 16" barrel SBR!
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Yep. The original Tavor also has a thick buttpad for exactly that reason, because it is IIRC 26.5" or somesuch with the 16" barrel and the flash suppressor removed. I assume that one could have a gunsmith permanently affix a flash suppressor to the barrel, which would that would make it possible to go with a thinner buttpad, and there are aftermarket ones that are thinner at the bottom only, but I like the OEM one fine.
 
My $.02.

I've got an X95, an SBRed AR, and a SBRed 9mm AR. Though not intended as such, my preference for CQ HD would be the 9 with it's suppressor and heavy subsonic HP ammo. With either of the 5.56 rifles, even with their suppressor, my ears would suffer too much if fired indoors without ear pro. The 9 is nearly hearing safe, just annoying. I feel that the 9 with proper ammo would be more than effective enough except against body armor. I run it unsuppressed in USPSA matches and it's so controllable that double tap A zone head shots at 10 yards aren't a problem. In the rare chance of body armor, that should do it.

I'm right handed, but running the X95 lefty isn't a problem for a few rounds if you have a beard. Done it multiple times in carbine matches. The biggest risk is getting ejected brass down your shirt. Ouch, but I did finish the stage without dancing. If you go with the X95, check out Manticore Arms. They make a replacement buttpad that reduces the effective length of the rifle by almost an inch while keeping it non-NFA. They also make an ambi safety for it.

Another rifle you might want to consider is the Kel-Tec RDB. It's a bullpup that ejects the brass downward and has full ambi controls. I've only shot one once, but liked it.
 
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