Help! What am I doing Wrong

[Werewolf]

Here's the deal.

Standing, using sling I can shoot my SA M-1 Garand, .308, standard military sights, into a B-26 target at 80 yards and stay inside the 8 ring. (Please no comments about owning a new SA in .308 being heresy and that's my problem).

Standing, using sling I can shoot my CZ-550 American, .308, scoped with Nikon 3-9X and can barely keep the shots in the 6 ring!

***!

It isn't the gun. Benched the M-1 will do 1.5" to 2.0" at 80 yards. Benched I get .75" to 1" with the CZ-550 at 80 yards. In both guns I'm shooting Portugese mil-surp 7.62X51 ammo.

I'm thinking the problem is that the recoil on the CZ-550 bolt action is much more severe than it is on the M-1. The M-1 is also about 2 pounds heavier.

If it is the recoil what can I do to counteract it's effects. If not what else could the problem be?

NOTE: With the exception of .22's the CZ-550 is the first major caliber (is .308 major caliber) bolt gun I've ever owned and shot. I've only had it for about 2 months.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Standing, using sling I can shoot my SA M-1 Garand, .308, standard military sights, into a B-26 target at 80 yards and stay inside the 8 ring. (Please no comments about owning a new SA in .308 being heresy and that's my problem).

Standing, using sling I can shoot my CZ-550 American, .308, scoped with Nikon 3-9X and can barely keep the shots in the 6 ring!

You have two problems here -- the first is the balance of the rifles. The M1 is a great rifle for shooting offhand because of its muzzle-heaviness, which tends to damp out the wobbles (the extra weight, all by itself helps too.)

The second is that a scope tends to magnify the wobbles, which tends to make the shooter more nervous.

Here are a few things you might try:

1. Keep your scope turned down to its lowest power.

2. Get a good .22 (a Kimber, Ruger M77/22, CZ 452) and a case of ammo. Shoot it all at 50 feet, at a standard 11-bull, 50-ft target. I like to put a full magazine (5 rounds from my Kimber M82) in a bull. I work the bolt from the shoulder and don't lower the rifle from the shoulder until the magazine is empty.

3. Practice your stance and form -- hold the rifle with the supporting hand just in front of the trigger guard. Keep the supporting forearm vertical. Face the target at about a 30-to-45 degree angle and put about 60% of your weight on the rear leg.

4. Initially work on just putting a round in the black -- increase trigger pressure when the crosshairs are on the black, hold when they wobble off.

5. Try working out with free weights or an appropriate exercise machine to tone the arms.

 

[Werewolf]

I'll give that a shot (ooops) a try.

Thanks

 

[Darkside852003]

(Please no comments about owning a new SA in .308 being heresy and that's my problem).

I like my new SA M1 in .308 so you won't hear a peep out of me.

 

[Malamute]

I'm not familiar with the model CZ you have, does the front sling mount on the barrel or the forend?

If on the barrel, then don't use the sling to shoot.

 

[24kshooter]

What type of sling configuration are you using (hasty) - perhaps you are not getting a good tight position. What happens when you do not use sling ? Breathing, trigger control, stock fit and stance are all important. Depending on your shape of face it might be a cheekweld issue with the type of stocks you are using or the ever present recoil induced trigger jerk. Are you consistantly pulling shots in one direction - right at 1-2 o'clock ?

 

[cracked butt]

The M1 is a much better balanced rifle than just about any sporting rifle other than those with the full length mannlicher style stocks, though I find some lever actions easy to shoot standing as well.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The M1 is a much better balanced rifle than just about any sporting rifle other than those with the full length mannlicher style stocks, though I find some lever actions easy to shoot standing as well.

The trick to shooting the M1 offhand is the reverse grip. The rifle should be supported by the weak hand just at the balance (the floorplate.) A right -handed shooter should reverse the supporting hand so the thumb is toward the shooter -- to keep his fingers from being hit by the operating rod. This also tends to lock the supporting arm nicely.

 

[30Cal]

I'd recommend you set down the centerfire rifles for a bit and practice offhand with the .22LR. It sounds like you some recoil induced issues (flinching or jerking the trigger). It's going to be easier to correct those problems with the .22.

Ty

 

[TimRB]

" It sounds like you some recoil induced issues (flinching or jerking the trigger)."

Finding a flinch in an M1 shooter is easy. Have a friend load up a clip and put a dummy round in there somewhere.

Tim

 

[Freedomv]

For what it's worth from a former competitive shooter,

Drop the sling and work on your standing position. As mentioned earlier your off hand should be just forward of the trigger guard at the point of balance of the rifle. The sling will not help you much and may be a hinderance.

You are not pass shooting with a shotgun so you want to keep your left elbow (assuming that you are right handed) pulled into your rib cage and forced toward your navel as much as possible.

Your right arm & elbow should be raised as near parrellel to the earth/ground as possible.

The rifle butt will not be low on your shoulder but rather the toe of the butt should be high on your shoulder to allow you to tilt your head towards the rifle and with out straining or "muscling" bring your (iron) sights into proper alignment. (A shooting jacket is a must to reduce recoil effects.)

I have never shot a scoped rifle offhand, but would suspect that you are forcing your self out of position to use the scope. (muscling) This would acount for larger group size.

One quistion. Do you feel comfortable shooting offhand? or are you forcing your body to get aimed shots off? If you are not comfortable you are forcing your shots and you will not be able to maintain good shot placement.

There is so much more to shooting good groups off hand than I could begin to relate here, but these are some of the basics to get started. Check out your position while dry firing etc at your target and see if you can develope a natural point of aim etc. and if there a differance in your positions while firing the two rifles?

I am sure that it will be beneficial for you in your quist for answers.

Vern

 

[Werewolf]

First off thanks to you all for the great advice. I've taken note and will be out to the range in the next few days.

Regarding using a 22LR to practice - been there and done that. I have no problems there. With my Marlin 25 shooting at 80 yards offhand I have no problems keeping all shots inside the 8 ring of a B-26 target.

You are not pass shooting with a shotgun so you want to keep your left elbow (assuming that you are right handed) pulled into your rib cage and forced toward your navel as much as possible.

Ahhhhh... I wish I could but you see I have short arms (30 sleeve length) and when I pull my left elbow into my rib cage my left hand can barely reach the rifle. This is why I use a sling (the way the Army taught me to do it way back in '71).

Like I said that works fine with the M-1 but not a scoped Bolt Action.

Your right arm & elbow should be raised as near parrellel to the earth/ground as possible.

This I have no problems with at all.

FWIW based on the advice proferred so far I think most of the problem I have with shooting the Bolt Action rifle offhand has to do with balance and the scope. Holding the M1 feels very natural. My cheek weld is low and lines up with the iron's easily. Felt Recoil is reduced because the M-1 is heavier and gas operated.

On the other hand on fella got it when he mentioned the scope. I do have to position my head on the butt in what feels to me like an unnatural position to get a good sight picture. Another gentleman mentioned turning down the mag to lowest (3X on the Nikon). I was up at 9X and the wobble visible was indeed quite disconcerting. In addition I tuck the butt in real tight to minimize the felt recoil.

I'm gonna try out all of your suggestions and see what happens. I've got Jeff Cooper's the Art of the Rifle and am going to review it as well.

Again - Thanks to you all for the excellent tips and advice.