Help with a BP gun (pic heavy)

[Rail Driver]

This belongs to my father in law, and he asked me to find out about it for him.

The bore is (approximately) a 12ga or very close

It looks to be in fairly good shape, with a small bit of rust here and there (I'll be cleaning that up asap), and some chipping in the plating on the trigger guard.

So what is it? What's it a copy of? I am thinking it's an Indian copy of a british gun due to the appearance and markings, but that's a wild guess.

Any concerns I should have about this gun? What kind of load would something like this take, handful of buckshot, patched ball, amount of powder, etc? (obviously BP only, as it's proof marked BP)

I plan to have a gunsmith check it out for safety later this week.

On to the pics:

 

[waidmann]

You need to move this over to the black powder guys. The pics are out of focus, one assumes a cavalry carbine of some sort but a .70+ smoothbore military percussion????


All those proofs ought hold an answer, either guage/bore or caliber.

 

[Rail Driver]

I know the pics aren't focused well. My camera is terrible.

The marks are as follows:
right side lockplate: Sikligar underneath what appears to be V. next to a backwards 7

on top of the barrel/breech area are two harp shaped marks over BP, a 12 in a diamond, the words "NOT NITRO", 89 GRS 1 1/4 OZ

above those, a tiny A, 10 and a smaller 11

Left side: Vardichand pannalal sikligar, udaipur 1972 Gun no. 7205

There are no markings on the stock, trigger guard, or buttplate.

The ramrod isn't marked either.

I assume that means the recommended max load is 89 grains of BP, non-nitro under a 1.25oz payload

I never really read the markings (oops), but it still doesn't help me with a maker, model, value, etc.

Edit to add:

I've found that Vardichland Pannalal Sikligar is the manufacturer, Udaipur is the location (india). on the right side lockplate it's V.P. not V.(reverse 7)

They don't have a website that I've been able to find, though they do have an address and phone number (not that I can afford to call India lol)

That's about where I hit a brick wall on this gun though.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am thinking it's an Indian copy of a british gun due to the appearance and markings

I agree.
Clearly Indian markings and it sure looks like an 1856 Enfield cavalry carbine as shown at:
http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/barnett-enfield-cavalry-carbine.htm

Back in those days, the British Raj didn't trust native troops with weapons as modern as their own, so there were smoothbore versions of the Empire's rifles. It looks like the policy continues.

 

[Rail Driver]

I agree.
Clearly Indian markings and it sure looks like an 1856 Enfield cavalry carbine as shown at:
http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/barnett-enfield-cavalry-carbine.htm

Back in those days, the British Raj didn't trust native troops with weapons as modern as their own, so there were smoothbore versions of the Empire's rifles. It looks like the policy continues.

That's a neat bit of info, Jim, I didn't know that.

This seems to be a pretty faithful reproduction, with the exception of bore size and lack of rifling. I'm sure with a little bit of filing or squishing, a 1oz 12ga slug will go down there easily over a couple Pyrodex or 777 pellets... Provided the gun passes inspection, is it safe to fire hollow base slugs in a BP gun?

 

[Jim Watson]

Beats me, my only experience is with patched balls and real powder and that a while back.
But they rifled a lot of .69 muskets and made great big Minie balls for them.

 

[Jim K]

I think 1972 is a bit late for the British Raj.

Those are Indian 12 gauge black powder shotgun proofs. I don't know if the gun was made as a repro but India has some very rigid gun control laws with, IIRC, a near total ban on cartridge guns with even shotguns tightly controlled. My take is that that gun was made for sale in India, not for export. I don't see mention of any American import marking, so it could have been brought back from that area by a traveller or an American GI.

Jim

 

[Rail Driver]

I think 1972 is a bit late for the British Raj.

Those are Indian 12 gauge black powder shotgun proofs. I don't know if the gun was made as a repro but India has some very rigid gun control laws with, IIRC, a near total ban on cartridge guns with even shotguns tightly controlled. My take is that that gun was made for sale in India, not for export. I don't see mention of any American import marking, so it could have been brought back from that area by a traveller or an American GI.

Jim

Jim, my father in law told me he got it from his dad (who was military and stationed in India) so it's likely as you said.

There are no import marks unless they're under the buttplate or on the part of the barrel or action that is under wood. I'll make sure to mention if I find anything when I disassemble it for cleaning. It looks like a simple design, and shouldn't be difficult at all.

Anybody have any ideas where I can look to find a value?

 

[Jim Watson]

1972 is unfortunately too late for the Raj.
Which is why I said "It looks like the policy continues."

Google says there is some usage of Indian muzzleloaders in Civil War reenactment.
The lack of rifling is no handicap, probably even a convenience when you are shooting blanks.

One outfit sells them with fake Tower marking for $425 new.

 

[Rail Driver]

Well, I discussed what I've learned with my father in law, and I'm going to take it to my gunsmith to ensure that it's safe to fire, take it apart to clean and lube it, refinish the stock and touch up the metal then shoot it. It will be really cool to be able to see to it that he can shoot his dad's gun, and I've got a sneaking feeling he's going to give it to me since he doesn't have a son to pass it down to.