Watching the Jerry Mikulek "Trigger Job" video, Jerry explains how to check the timing of revolvers. According to Jerry (I use his first name since he is a close and personal friend who frequently takes me shooting and loans me money), when you slowly pull the trigger, you should hear a faint click as the cylinder locks, just berfore the hammer falls. Of my 3 S&W revolvers, only one does this perfectly on every cylinder. The other two do not. So how important is this? Would you have a gunsmith correct the timing, if these were your guns? Thank you for any thoughts/opinions.
How important is correct revolver timing?
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So, once the trigger breaks, you can turn the cylinder to "click" it into place? How far do you have to turn it? More than ever-so-slightly? Could be, when you pull the trigger during actual shooting, momentum forces the cylinder to lock up like it should. Then again, maybe not. If it were me, I'd get it fixed. I just went through some of this with my S&W. If the cylinder doesn't lock up just before the trigger breaks, the round and forcing cone may be slightly out of alignment when fired. I felt accuracy fell off a bit, and it spit lead occassionally. I was also concerned about accelerated wear, and since I shoot this one a lot and prefer to continue doing so, I felt it best to send it back to S&W for repairs.
MCgunner
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The hand could rotate the cylinder to full lock and, in DA anyway, and probably SA, there would be no malfunction due to the fact the hand rotates the cylinder to full lock before the hammer can fall, even though the cylinder didn't lock before the sear broke. It's not a condition I would prefer, but the gun would still function.
I'd get it fixed. I test ALL revolvers for timing before I buy 'em, but a lot of shooting can put a revolver out of time, of course. I'm not real sure how smiths fix timing and would be interested in hearing someone explain who knows. I took an old 1917 Smith to get timed and tightened up that I ordered sight unseen once. Hey, it was a hundred bucks, so gimme a break. LOL
I'd get it fixed. I test ALL revolvers for timing before I buy 'em, but a lot of shooting can put a revolver out of time, of course. I'm not real sure how smiths fix timing and would be interested in hearing someone explain who knows. I took an old 1917 Smith to get timed and tightened up that I ordered sight unseen once. Hey, it was a hundred bucks, so gimme a break. LOL
Well, I for one really don't know how the repair is done, but the repair ticket that came back with mine said they replaced the hand, turned the barrel and cut the forcing cone. Don't know if the forcing cone really needed a fixing (didn't have that many rounds through it), so if it really did need to be fixed, it's good the repair was done. And why the hand needed to be fixed in the first place? I bought it new and never tried to imitate ol' JM when shooting it, so it's hard to imagine it getting bend or too terribly worn.
RecoilRob
Member
If the hand fails to turn the cyl far enough to lock before the hammer falls, it is likely too short. Replacement with a longer one would be the logical repair....although I have heard of fellows 'stretching' a hand with judicial hammer-working along the mid-section.
dfariswheel
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"If the hand fails to turn the cyl far enough to lock before the hammer falls, it is likely too short."
Sorry, that's totally wrong.
In COLT DA revolvers the LENGTH of the hand is what determines timing of lockup.
In S&W, the newer Colt's like the King Cobra, Ruger, Dan Wesson, and Taurus it's THICKNESS of the hand that determines lockup.
This is somewhat counter-intuitive
What happens in the S&W and others is, the hand pushes the cylinder around part way, then the THICKNESS of the hand acting against the cylinder ejector ratchet sort of "squeezes" it the rest of the way.
In most revolvers, you're pulling the trigger fast enough or single action cocking fast enough that the cylinder will lock up before the hammer falls.
However, if it's far enough out of time that it's possible for the gun to fire in an unlocked condition it's no longer safe to use.
In any event, if ANY revolver fails to lock up when cocked very slowly, it's out of time, and should be repaired.
Unless it's caused by something else, like an ejector problem, the "usual" fix for this problem is to fit a new, or possibly a special, thicker hand.
Sorry, that's totally wrong.
In COLT DA revolvers the LENGTH of the hand is what determines timing of lockup.
In S&W, the newer Colt's like the King Cobra, Ruger, Dan Wesson, and Taurus it's THICKNESS of the hand that determines lockup.
This is somewhat counter-intuitive
What happens in the S&W and others is, the hand pushes the cylinder around part way, then the THICKNESS of the hand acting against the cylinder ejector ratchet sort of "squeezes" it the rest of the way.
In most revolvers, you're pulling the trigger fast enough or single action cocking fast enough that the cylinder will lock up before the hammer falls.
However, if it's far enough out of time that it's possible for the gun to fire in an unlocked condition it's no longer safe to use.
In any event, if ANY revolver fails to lock up when cocked very slowly, it's out of time, and should be repaired.
Unless it's caused by something else, like an ejector problem, the "usual" fix for this problem is to fit a new, or possibly a special, thicker hand.
Ala Dan
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Simple
of utmost importance~!
of utmost importance~!
dfariswheel is correct, installing a thicker hand is the normal fix for an S&W. However, there is one simple thing to check before worrying about installing a new hand. If you have an older S&W, pre-1994 or so, there are two very small pins that center the ejector star. Check to be certain one of those pins is not missing. If one of the pins is missing, there will be enough slop in the ejector star (and hence the ratchet) that the timing may be off on 2 or 3 chambers.
FullEffect1911
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yeah sarcasim doesn't really translate well over forums/email/AIM. Anyway, it's important and needs to be corrected.
Harley Quinn
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Shaving hot lead out the side of your revolver, on to the other shooters is a fast way to find out how important it is
Phil DeGraves
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Depends how severely out of time it is. As said before, if severe it can result in "spitting" lead out of the flash gap, or it may not even fire. If it is minor, the extra momentum from the weight of rounds in the cylinder will often make it a non-issue when actually firing the weapon.
On S&W's the frame thickness in the area of the hand slot is way too thin. The movement of the hand gradually wears the slot wider until some of the hand travel is lost in taking up the sideways slack. Slight wear on the hand tip makes it even worse. The ejector ratchet isn't pushed up far enough and you get late timing or failure to lock up. The fix is to fit an oversized hand which is thicker and longer than the stock one. They used to be available at Power Custom. Another design defect with the S&W frame, especially the "N" frame, is the slot for the cylinder stop. The metal is too thin here as well. So as the heavy cylinder and ammo is jerked to a stop at lockup, the cylinder stop is battered into the side of the frame slot, gradually making it wider and wider. This can screw up the timing as well as the barrel to cylinder alignment. You used to be able to get oversized cylinder stops from S&W, but now you have to have one custom made or send the gun back to the factory to get it fixed. It's not a problem if you don't shoot the guns much. After wearing out a half dozen "N" frames I got tired of working on them all the time. So I got rid of them all and switched over to Freedom Arms. Of course, nothing is perfect. They wear too. I just passed the 6000 round mark on one of them and it's getting awfully sloppy. I've got a .0035 barrel to cylinder gap, .002 of rotational slop in the cylinder and .0015 of endshake. Oh well, that's why I bought two of them.
This is all very interesting and enlightening. It begs then question, then, What is the average lifetime of "proper timing", given normal use (i.e. not speed shooting or use of very hot rounds, etc)? To me, 6,000 rounds doesn't sound like that much. Between dry fire practice and live fire, I bet I pull the trigger that much on both my 686 .357magnum and 617 .22LR in 6 months.
Would a hand cast out of 6/4 titanium be tougher? Maybe a titanium hand would wear the steel cylinder slots faster. For that matter, would a titanium cylinder have a longer life wrt to slot wear, and/or would it wear a steel hand faster?
Also, with an oversized cylinder stop to fix a wide cylinder slot, I imagine it can be tricky to take the right amount of material off the correct side of the stop. In my mind, I can see the filed down slot fitting the oversized slot asymmetrically, making the timing worse.
Would a hand cast out of 6/4 titanium be tougher? Maybe a titanium hand would wear the steel cylinder slots faster. For that matter, would a titanium cylinder have a longer life wrt to slot wear, and/or would it wear a steel hand faster?
Also, with an oversized cylinder stop to fix a wide cylinder slot, I imagine it can be tricky to take the right amount of material off the correct side of the stop. In my mind, I can see the filed down slot fitting the oversized slot asymmetrically, making the timing worse.
Fitting an oversize hand is usually not difficult, as the new hand will probably fit in the wornout slot without work. All that needs to be checked is the length. If it is too long, it will be forced into a bind at the end of the trigger travel. Fitting the oversized cylinder stop is a little bit trickier. It must fit into the notches in the cylinder and be located in the frame slot so that the cylinder bores line up well with the barrel. On production guns, the individual cylinders bores vary in diameter and are never spaced exactly the same distance apart. To get the best average lineup between the cylinder and barrel bores at lockup requires a snug fitting range rod, extremely careful stoning on the sides of the cylinder stop, and plenty of trial fitting. Good Luck. On the other hand, at 6000 rounds the Freedom Arms is just nicely broken in. I don't expect that it will need a "freshen up" until around 30,000.
"Timing" is hugely important. I have had a couple of cheapy revolvers over the years that sent ALMOST as much lead downrange as they sent sideways.
Didn't really know how bad one of them was, untill I shot it while holding it in the middle of a small (12"x12") cardboard box ...WOW! Couldn't believe how much splatter there was.
Problem on that one was that the 'cylinder lock bolt' was severly rounded over, and didn't engage the cylinder lock slots well.. A LOT of slop both ways, and a cylinder/barrel gap of .007"
Didn't really know how bad one of them was, untill I shot it while holding it in the middle of a small (12"x12") cardboard box ...WOW! Couldn't believe how much splatter there was.
Problem on that one was that the 'cylinder lock bolt' was severly rounded over, and didn't engage the cylinder lock slots well.. A LOT of slop both ways, and a cylinder/barrel gap of .007"
Harley Quinn
Member
The life span for some parts in revolvers, need to be looked at like springs and other parts for pistols.
The Glocks can go for thousands of rounds they mention but they need some fine tuning also. Similar to the revolver
The Glocks can go for thousands of rounds they mention but they need some fine tuning also. Similar to the revolver
geronimotwo
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is there a link that details the correct breakdown, inspection, and reassembly of a smith revolver?
dfariswheel
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None that really tell everything you need to know.
If you own a S&W the best money you can spend is to buy a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book "The S&W Revolvers: A Shop Manual".
This is a real pistolsmith's manual that covers EVERYTHING about the S&W revolvers, from inspection, timing, dis- and re- assembly, how to fit new parts, how to tune for better action etc.
You can buy it from Brownell's and Midway for less then $30.00.
It's well worth the money, if nothing else, just to be able to determine if your gun is operating properly.
If you own a S&W the best money you can spend is to buy a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book "The S&W Revolvers: A Shop Manual".
This is a real pistolsmith's manual that covers EVERYTHING about the S&W revolvers, from inspection, timing, dis- and re- assembly, how to fit new parts, how to tune for better action etc.
You can buy it from Brownell's and Midway for less then $30.00.
It's well worth the money, if nothing else, just to be able to determine if your gun is operating properly.
RecoilRob
Member
Thanks guys for setting me straight on how the hand really operates. Have never actually messed with one and was only reciting what I read somewhere....which coincidentally WAS about the timing on a Colt!
Didn't realise the difference between them and the other manufacturers, but after spending some quality time with a bright light and magnification, what is actually happening on the Ruger is now clear.
The hand hits the outside of the star at first, but as it rotates upwards, the hand ends up pushing the innermost edge only. So I see where the gaining of any sideplay in the hand would lose you the effective length.
This thread illustrates why I keep coming back to THR. Combined knowledge from many educated folks. Thanks again for the schooling guys!
Didn't realise the difference between them and the other manufacturers, but after spending some quality time with a bright light and magnification, what is actually happening on the Ruger is now clear.
The hand hits the outside of the star at first, but as it rotates upwards, the hand ends up pushing the innermost edge only. So I see where the gaining of any sideplay in the hand would lose you the effective length.
This thread illustrates why I keep coming back to THR. Combined knowledge from many educated folks. Thanks again for the schooling guys!
Grizzly Adams
Member
Harley Quinn is absolutely correctly and if you've had it happen to you a couple of times you'll know how important timing is. Only thing I can think that would be worse is M16 brass do you shirt!
packnrat
Member
how important is living?
I spoke with one of the gunsmiths today at S&W. I told him that I thought the timing was off on my J frame 442, and I was interested in having this problem corrected. He asked me how the gun functioned, to which I replied that the gun functioned fine. He then told me that unless there was excessive spray coming out from the sides of the gun when shooting, " I wouldn't worry about it." As we talked a little more, he was quite definite in his response of "don't bother with it."
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