Hunting with 270 Weatherby

Status
Not open for further replies.
The old rancher told me as you get older you gravitate to lighter rifles in smaller calibers.
You find that you don't need all the big powerful magnums anymore. I kind of think he
is right. He also said that if the 7mm Mauser was a girl she would be a 10.

Zeke
 
I suppose the best thing about Weatherby cartridges is that you don't have to be a good marksman, worry about bullet drop, or be concerned about shot placement. The power of the cartridge will compensate for all shooting errors:



I am not interested in huge blast or recoil, recently I turned down a very fair offer of a pre 64 M70 in 300 Weatherby Magnum. Someone got it, and undoubtedly, they are flinching each shot. Of course, the power of the cartridge compensates for flinches. Me, with my puny 270 Win or 30-06, I have to hold harder and aim better, but I accept the limitations.
 
If it was a pre 64 Model 70, they reamed it out because the .300 Weatherby ammo is alot easier to get than .300 H&H parent case these days. Yes the .300 Weatherby is a thunder beast, a hard kicker and a wonderous flat shooting heavy hitter. I took one to Africa when it was in vogue to do so in early 80s with a push feed Model 70 .458 as a heavy. I got my buff with the .458 and all the other plains game with the old German made Mark V .300 Weatherby. I left the .458 with PH as a tip for excellent service . The Weatherby .300 pretty much set in safe after that and was sold for $1500 with Weatherby scope a few years ago. I still have an early factory weatherby FN Mauser actioned ..300 Weatherby I got from Joe Dutra 30 years ago, it is unfinished project with a Gentry Brake on it and the barrel action inletted in Classic English 4x Walnut . I am retiring this year, it will be a bueat :) But will sell it .
 
I still have an early factory weatherby FN Mauser actioned ..300 Weatherby

I would not fire the thing with full power Weatherby rounds. The Mauser action was never designed for the bolt thrust of a belted magnum. FN actions from the 1950's were made out of plain carbon steels, I have never found a reference to them using alloy steels. The 1898 military action fired an 8mm round at 43,000 cup, was proofed at 58,000 cup. Metallurgy improved and by the time things get to WW2 the maximum working pressure of the German 7.9 sS cartridge was 46, 926 psi. A proof pressure 7.9sS would be 61k psi. Weatherby rounds are a larger diameter, massively increasing bolt thrust, and of course, are 60 K psia cartridges.

I am of the opinion that Weatherby had to make his own actions because FN actions were cracking bolt lugs. I doubt he or any Weatherby fan would admit to problems with the early actions, but they did go away.

The original H&H magnum rounds were a lot lower pressure than the American commercial versions. H&H understood the limitations of their German Mauser actions, but when the rounds became popular in the US, they could be fired in alloy steel M70's which were designed to take the 300 H&H and 375 H&H at American pressures.

I am certain Weatherby would not have been caught dead using a Remington 700 action or a Winchester M70 action. It would have ruined any concept of a Weatherby brand. He tried the FN actions and eventually came up with his own action, which is a massive and strong action.
 
ROFL, "I would not fire the thing with full power Weatherby rounds. The Mauser action was never designed for the bolt thrust of a belted magnum. FN actions from the 1950's were made out of plain carbon steels, I have never found a reference to them using alloy steels. The 1898 military action fired an 8mm round at 43,000 cup, was proofed at 58,000 cup."
Now that there is the funniest thing I've heard today ! A 1953 FN commercial Magnum long action won't take 60,000 PSI loads LOL !
 
ROFL, "I would not fire the thing with full power Weatherby rounds. The Mauser action was never designed for the bolt thrust of a belted magnum. FN actions from the 1950's were made out of plain carbon steels, I have never found a reference to them using alloy steels. The 1898 military action fired an 8mm round at 43,000 cup, was proofed at 58,000 cup."

Now that there is the funniest thing I've heard today ! A 1953 FN commercial Magnum long action won't take 60,000 PSI loads LOL !


Pressure times surface area equals load. Structures are designed to carry a load and I am going to state that old plain carbon steel Mauser actions are not suitable for conversion to belted magnum loads just by comparing the bolt thrust of the original cartridge. This is a simple first order analysis, but I have also examined the shear area and looked at fatigue curves, and I would not convert a military Mauser, or an FN Mauser to a belted magnum.

From Cartridges of the World

8 mm case head diameter 0.470” Area 0.1735 square inches
338 Win Mag case head diameter 0.515” Area 0.2083 square inches

Bolt face loads

8mm (Mauser design loads) 0.1735 in ² X 43, 371 lbs/ in ² = 7, 525 lbs
338 Win Mag = 0.2083 in ² X 65,000 lbs/ in ² = 13, 539 lbs

The 338 Win Mag provides an 80% increase in bolt thrust over standard military loads.

This FN Commercial action was chambered in 264 Win Mag, seems someone was able to crack the lugs in it.









With an action that is over 70 years old, getting parts can be difficult. I am absolutely certain that neither Weatherby nor FN warranty that action and if you crack your bolt lugs, assuming something bad does not happen to your face and hands, (the endings of catastrophic failures are highly variable) then finding a replacement bolt, and getting it headspaced, will cost some real money.

It is your rifle, your action. Get the thing finished and go out and shoot some real hot Weatherby Magnum loads. Not just one or two, or even ten, shoot the barrel out. That should take about 700 to 800 rounds. Tell us what happens.
 
Ge whiz I guess all those Rigby and other Magnum Mausers were unsafe. I am sorry "carbon steel" what ever that is as it has been alloyed since the 1930s at least for ordinance purposes is hugely strong when properly heat treated . The 98 series Mausers and the improved commercial ones have a worldwide history of safe service . I would be worried about the English walnut stock cracking in my FN/.300 Weatherby before suffering damage from factory level loads. Yes the barrels do errode quickly, and no this old man will not be shooting it much before I sell it. I draw the line recoil wise these days with my .270 WSM in a 1999 production Winchester Classis model 70 which is pretty much a copy of a 98 Mauser but with the coned breech. I collect pre 64 Model 70s since my first one in 63 . Thanks for the thoughtfull warning, and I do believe the 98 Mauser is not capable of the benchrest accuracy of other bolt systems but will never believe that are unsuited for any Sammi pressurre rounds that they are sized to shoot in them.
 
Ge whiz I guess all those Rigby and other Magnum Mausers were unsafe. I am sorry "carbon steel" what ever that is as it has been alloyed since the 1930s at least for ordinance purposes is hugely strong when properly heat treated .

What pressures did the proprietary English cartridges operate at? I have seen velocity data on original 300 H&H Magnum cartridges, the ones put out by H&H. I would say, the pressures did not exceed 50,000 CUP. I suspect they were around the middle 40,000 CUP range. The English makers of these rifles understood the limitations of the German actions they used, sold ammunition made by them, for their rifles, which were probably OK for the new rifles they built.

I am going to say, you don't know the pressures of the original English cartridges, you are assuming that they are the same pressures for the SAAMI spec cartridges of today. But those cartridges are only fit for modern actions. Your ignorance will not protect in you a liability lawsuit against any American cartridge manufacturer if you happen to blow up a vintage rifle.

Hugely strong? As strong as the sauce on the Baconator sandwich?
 
The cordite charges used in the original development of H&H magnums were heat sensitive and kept reasonable for the expected hot climates they were designed for. Remember around 5o,ooo CUP is now known to be about 60,000 psi or so. The head size and there fore thrust area of those old cartridges was huge too. Anyway I stand that modern post war quality 98 Mauser actions are fully up to holding factory level pressures of cartridges they are design for. There are always manufacturing flaws , heat treat problems and such in any actions and time honored design which have proven themselves would long ago been "outed" as to their flaws. The MKV Weatherby action while theoretically very strong in the field has shown it self to be not as great as expected, one very big problem is getting all those multiple locking lugs to bear against their engagement areas equally . as one example of "improvements" that have not measured up.
 
The cordite charges used in the original development of H&H magnums were heat sensitive and kept reasonable for the expected hot climates they were designed for.

I agree with the second part of your statement, but the first part is derived from “gun writer” wisdom. I have not seen any data on the temperature sensitive of cordite from period American gunpowder. As far as I can tell, there was no difference in temperature sensitive in period cordite versus American stick powders. They all were bad. I highly distrust American Gunwriter “wisdom” as these characters don’t actually test or verify any of the “wisdom” they endlessly repeat to each other in their ignorant and inbred community. Unfortunately their statements are unquestionably taken as gospel by the American shooting community, who then repeat it until it becomes an object of faith. The only cartridges I fired that had cordite were 303 British service rounds,. I am of the opinion that American Gunwriters are as equally ignorant of the pressure characteristics of cordite as I am, and, their opinions are based on nationalistic biases. I have read a lot of American nationalistic rubbish from American Gunwriters over the decades. It was particularly virulent in the pre WW2 era.

What we do know is that British cartridges loaded with cordite were used world wide, in Arctic to Desert Environments. So were American cartridges loaded stick powder, and of course ball powder, which caused a lot of jams in hot and hot/wet environments. Maybe the 5.56 cartridge should have been loaded with cordite.

Remember around 5o,ooo CUP is now known to be about 60,000 psi or so. The head size and there fore thrust area of those old cartridges was huge too.

You have no idea nor can you state what pressures those British proprietary cartridges operated at, nor what pressure specifications they were kept under. There is an interesting article on British sporting cartridges in my Cartridges of the World. Unfortunately no pressure data, but the author brings out the point that British cartridge pressure was kept low, very low by American standards, for several reasons. Almost all Magnum cartridges were used in break open actions. These actions are similar to double barrel shotgun actions and are not particularly strong. They are a lot less rigid than a Mauser action. And another reason was that the British were aware that temperatures raised combustion pressures. Unlike the Americans who are fairly clueless about this issue. So the British started out with low pressure cartridges that would not get overpressure in 100 degree heat. They wanted their cartridges to extract in hot conditions, particularly those cartridges used on dangerous game. American cartridge practice has generally ignored temperature and pressure and focused solely on maximizing velocity. Gunwriters think nothing of 65,000 psia cartridges, think nothing about pressure problems, they are only focused on shilling, and velocity is an easy characteristic to shill about. However, pressure is not your friend. It is better to do the same job at low pressure than high. There will be less problems. High velocity generally equals high pressure, especially in cartridges less than 0.50 in caliber. The author of the Cartridges of the World article claimed a number of shooters had extraction difficult with their 458 Win Mag’s, and got stomped or eaten when hunting dangerous game in hot weather.

The reason this is not well know is because few American’s hunt dangerous, large game, in hot weather. Most of the big game rifles they own are gathering dust in gun cabinets. I doubt any have been fired enough to wear out the barrel. So their opinions are formulated on the basis of maybe twenty rounds at the range and decades of Walter Mitty dreams. Similar to your situation, your FN Mauser action is more of a Rorschach ink blot test than anything else. The rifle and action are around 70 years old, you have never fired any rounds through the thing, (apparently) and yet, you project all sorts of feelings and emotions about the thing.

Well, shoot the thing. Shoot it with hot Weatherby loads. Shoot a lot of rounds through it, wear out the barrel, and come back and provide some data on the lifetime of the thing.


I for one, would rebarrel the thing to something else.


The MKV Weatherby action while theoretically very strong in the field has shown it self to be not as great as expected, one very big problem is getting all those multiple locking lugs to bear against their engagement areas equally . as one example of "improvements" that have not measured up.

There are lots of rifles with multiple locking lugs, I have never owned a Weatherby. The analysis by Stuart Ottesen in his book "The Bolt Action", Chapter 10 Weatherby Mark V, raises this an an issue. However Stuart wrote this book in 1976, well before the semi conductor revolution. I am certain that today's manufacturing technology would have no issue with achieving 100% lug contact with all lugs (for a price) , something that could not have been done with the single process milling machines that were on the factory floor in 1976. Lugs were probably filed to fit, if fitted at all, back then. The greatest issue I can imagine is heat treatment warpage, but, the lugs could be precision ground after heat treatment.

The strength of a Mark V action is almost unbelievable.

Wiki states:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherby_Mark_V

Proof testing of the Mark V action
Weatherby had intended that the new action would be the safest and strongest bolt action available. The rifle was marketed as the "The World's Strongest Bolt Action". The Mark V action has been tested to be able to contain up to 200,000 CUP (Copper Units of Pressure).[5]


The testing of the rifle was conducted on a production rifle chambered for the .300 Weatherby Magnum. Before testing was to be conducted, very thorough measurements of the rifle were taken so as to provide a benchmark for the testing which was to be undertaken.[6]


The first test was conducted using a 180 gr (12 g) bullet propelled by 82 gr (5.3 g) of Du Pont #4350 powder. This load provided 65,000 psi (4,500 bar) of pressure. This load did not show any pressure or extraction issues with the new Mark V action but caused a slight sticking of the cartridge case in the Mauser style rifle design. Subsequent testing was performed using the same 180 gr (12 g) bullet and using a powder charge of Du Pont #4350 which increased by increments of 2 gr (0.13 g) for each test thereafter.[3]


The second testing which was conducted with the 84 gr (5.4 g) showed no signs of pressure nor issues with extraction even though the measured pressure was close to 75,000 psi (5,200 bar). Firing this load in the Mauser rifle led to a blown primer and extreme difficulty was experienced in extracting the spent case.[3]


Using 86 gr (5.6 g) of Du Pont #4350 the cartridge began to show signs of pressure in the Mark V action. However, the case did not stick and extraction was performed easily. Breach pressure was found to be between 85,000–95,000 psi (5,900–6,600 bar). Measurements of the spent case showed that the case had stretched at the belt a mere .0005 in (0.013 mm).[3]


The spent case from the 88 gr (5.7 g) test led to a slightly sticking case, which in turn led to a slight difficulty in opening of the bolt. Measurements from the case belt showed that the belt had expanded from .533 in (13.5 mm) to .535 in (13.6 mm). The pressure generated by this load was 100,000 psi (6,900 bar).


The fifth test was conducted used a load of 90 gr (5.8 g) of Du Pont 4350. Firing this load led to some difficulty in opening the bolt, and the case was extracted when opened. The belt of the case still measured .535 in (13.6 mm). A difference in the diameter between the bolt head and the diameter of the barrel of .002 in (0.051 mm) per side was noted. No bulging of the bolt, receiver or the barrel was noted. Headspace was measured to be the same as prior to the testing.[3]


Further testing was conducted with a 180 gr (12 g) bullet lodged into the throat of the barrel. A cartridge loaded with the standard charge of 78 gr (5.1 g) of Du Pont 4350 and a 180 gr (12 g) bullet was fired into the back of the first bullet. It was found that both bullets exited the barrel. The primer had been pierced and the exiting gas entered into the bolt and hit the firing pin sleeve, which was loosened slightly. The bolt was opened by hand but the cartridge stayed stuck in the chamber. When the case was tapped out, it was found to be in good condition except for its pierced primer. It was found that the barrel, just in front of the receiver ring, had expanded from 1.147 in (29.1 mm) to 1.1496 in (29.20 mm). The diameter of the bolt head had expanded from .7178 in (18.23 mm) to .7190 in (18.26 mm). The head space had increased from .2163 in (5.49 mm) to .2174 in (5.52 mm). All other dimensions had stayed constant. This test was conducted 15 times. A test was conducted with a 220 gr (14 g) bullet lodged into the bore of the rifle and a 180 gr (12 g) grain bullet was fired into the back of this bullet. The result of this test found that the cartridge case head had expanded to .545 in (13.8 mm). After these additional 15 tests it was found that the head space was set back only a mere .001 in (0.025 mm).[3]

While I am a fan of the pure 98 Mauser action, it was too expensive to manufacture. The FN Deluxe action had a lot more Mauser features than the later FN actions, but still, they split the inner collar, which I think is bad for strength and gas sealing. The later actions, about the only thing Mauser was a claw extractor and the contour. Weatherby continues to make Mark V actions, which ought to be a comment on how well they have been accepted by the shooting community.
 
You are talking to someone who had a good size collection of Weatherby MarkV rifles in all calibers and shot and chronographed most of them Also had a Weatherby Shultz and Larsen actioned .378 Weatherby which was a nasty piece of work IMHO and that of my good old friend Joe Dutra from San Jose Ca. who I got most of them from , including this in this barrelled action .300 weatherby FN so factory marked that I inletted in the English Classic stock but have not finished as until recently as I had my old German made .300 WBy deluxe that I admit is a hell of a cannon for most useage. Joe Dutra was Roy Weatherby's Southgate head gunsmith from early 50s to later 70s and he knew the inside skinny of the operation . If shooters were led by the reasoning of your technical discourse , which I have no doubt is true ; we would be shooting the type 99 Arisaka action as PO Ackley documented in his blow up tests held more pressure than anything available at the time of his 50s testing. The Arisaka of course is a form of the dual lug Mauser action . I started hunting big game in 1963 when an uncle gave me for Christmas a 1953 Winchester Model 70 in .270 , which I still have, the barrel is a little worn and it did kill like lightning with good hits and it operates at moderate pressures, unless you hot rod the ammo (like anything else) it is retired now for my last made in Conn. Model 70 ultimate Classic .270 WSM which obviously does work at a little more pressure , but not really any more powder charge and the head is bigger than the belted magnum case. The Winchester is a very slick feeder and never exhibited the feeding problems I have heard about other brand .270 WSM s , no doubt Winchester figured that angle out. The WSM really approaches the .270 Weatherby which uses quite a bit more poewder and the .270 WSM really is a step up in flat shooting over my .270 Winchseter 1953, and it is more accurate from my two examples at least. So in my OPINION there IS cartridge advance made in the last couple decades. Also regarding the Weatherby Mark V , it sure gets negative opinions by real African PH I have talked to who roll their eyes if you say that is what you are bringing there, but in the time I did it worked for me . I personally think the Remington type 600-700 action is the strongest and the modern high end clones of it are the top of the heap if you are concerned with strength and accuracy. Lastly I think the weak link in all this "strength " of action talk is the brass, and modern centerfire rifles work a reasonable amount under the capability of brass ,, not the action.
 
If shooters were led by the reasoning of your technical discourse , which I have no doubt is true ; we would be shooting the type 99 Arisaka action as PO Ackley documented in his blow up tests held more pressure than anything available at the time of his 50s testing. The Arisaka of course is a form of the dual lug Mauser action

I think highly of the Arisaka action. I have a type 38 my Dad brought back from the War, (you remember, there was a time when there was only one war..) played with it, taken it apart. I have a type 99 and I have shot it. These are very good actions, the Japanese put a lot of thought and effort making a safe, strong, and simple action. It is a safer, simpler, stronger action than any M1903 ever made. Still, I am a fan of the M98.

I envy your collection of Weatherby's, don't have one. I do have a small number of pre 64 M70's and I have three 308 Win target rifles with Classic M70 actions. The M70 is inferior to the 98 Mauser in gas protection, safety features, but assuming no pierced primers or blown case heads, it is a smooth and slick action. I have worn barrels out in competition on one pre 64. Because the action was designed for the 375 H&H at American pressures, and built out of alloy steels, it is fine for every cartridge that Winchester chambered it in. I don't know if they made any in a Weatherby Mag, but if it was, I am certain the action won't crack its lugs on its first barrel. Maybe the second though....

Lastly I think the weak link in all this "strength " of action talk is the brass, and modern centerfire rifles work a reasonable amount under the capability of brass ,, not the action

I absolutely agree with this. The brass case is simply a gas seal, it was never supposed to carry load, the action is not made weaker assuming the case carries load. Actions are strong in so far as they provide cartridge support. The Arisaka action supported more of the case head than does a Mauser or a M1903, which was a major reason the action could handle higher pressures. It contained the case better. The other actions, when the case head ruptured, gas would get out in the receiver ring and break it. The trade off was, it took more machining and hand fitting to install a barrel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top