Interesting info on the 38 Special?

[Bill B.]

I just picked a book on Smith & Wesson's and there was a comment on the Victory Model S&W 38 Special supplied to the British forces. Per this article the standard round furnished was a 200 grain round nose lead bullet. I had allways thought that the 158 was the "quote" standard load. Anyone care to shed any light on what was the loadings used by the military in the various wars the 38 Special saw service in.

I will add this if the 200 grain load was a standard load it kinda knocks the theory that the 38 special was lacking in knockdown power.

 

[ChristopherG]

I believe that was a specifically British permutation of the .38 Smith & Wesson, NOT the .38 Special. The .38 S&W was introduced by S&W in 1887, and used a 158 grain bullet--at least in the form contracted by the War Dept., on the 1889 M&P hand ejector. The British uploaded the 38S&W sometime after this--but this was never a common loading in the 38 special, IIRC.

 

[jacobtowne]

I agree.
The Lend-Lease S&W M&Ps were chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge, not .38 Special.
The British developed a 200-grain lead bullet load for the .38 S&W, the .380/200 Mk. I cartridge, but never used it in combat, having changed to a 178-grain jacketed bullet before WWII began due to concerns with the lead bullet offending someone's sensibilities.
The 200- grain .38 S&W load was known here as the Super Police.
JT

 

[Old Fuff]

But to further confuse the issue ... Winchester-Western offered a 200 grain load in .38 Special - also called the Super Police. However so far as I know it was never used by either Brit. or U.S. military forces.

Smith & Wesson called the guns made for the English the ".38-200" model, and the .38 Special version made for the U.S. the "Victory" model, although both were serial numbered in a "V" prefix series during and after 1942.

 

[Bill B.]

Excellent information from all! Thank You!

 

[robertbank]

I don't know whether or not they ever got to combat though I suspect they did but I have shot hundreds of rounds of the .38S&W from ammo boxes that were "military ball" surplus from Canadian Army. Uncle carried one as a tank commander during WW11. Used to say he could never figure out what for. Guns were not particularily accurate and other than when he played infantry briefly in Holland had little use for the gun. The Sherman gun was his preferred weapon of choice. LOL Received Bronze Star from you folks for action at Falais Gap. South Alberta Tank Regiment.

Stay Safe

 

[BluesBear]

I'm happy to see I'm not the only one who remembers the 200gr Super Police loading.

Woefully enemic when fired from anything shorter that a 6" barrel and only marginally effectice even then.
As I recall it was less than 700fps from a 6" test barrel.
When fired from a 2" you can actually watch the bullets going down range in sunlight.
From a 2" barrel they will bounce off automobile side window glass from 6'.

 

[robertbank]

Bluebear

Back in 1966 we had a bank robbery in Edmonton. City police arrived and fired 12 rounds at the fleeing get away car. All the bullets either bounced off the windshield or trunk area. Due to some urging from the Banks the City fathers replaced the old Webleys with Model 10 in .38spl. They have since gone to the 9MM Glock I think

Stay Safe

 

[jacobtowne]

BluesBear:
You're right. Velocity is about 650fps for the Super Police and British .380/200.
JT

 

[BluesBear]

HALT!
Or we'll chip your paint!

 

[Dave T]

I can't remember the source right now but I have read that that 38 S&W 200g load was noted for it lack of stopping, rather than the other way around.

Likewise, as a young cop I talked to two senior officers who had carried that 200g Super Police load (in both cases for 4" barrels). One of them had actually used it in a shooting, emptying the cylinder into a drunk's chest at about 5 yards. He and another officer had to wrestle the drunk to the ground and handcuff him as he was still fighting. The other officer had a tale of a round bouncing off a car's side window.

It would appear a 200g bullet is not optimum for either of those "38" cartridges (smiley face goes here).

Dave

 

[jacobtowne]

HALT! Or I'll chip your paint!

Ha! Good one.
JT

 

[isp2605]

Still have a full box of 200 gr .38 Spl Lubaloy around here someplace. In .38 Spl they combined the worst of both worlds - LRN and super slow speed. I suppose somebody thought they were a good idea.

 

[ChristopherG]

Yeah, the LRN just seems like a loser no matter how heavy or how slow you push it. I'll bet a 200 gr. wadcutter would have proven more effective--not against cars, maybe, but as a fightstopper. Ideally, a bit faster than 650 fps , but even there--that's a 130 pf load, if you have a projectile that will convert it into real effects on a target, rather than slithering through like a pointy-headed snake.

 

[Old Fuff]

The British had a bullet they called the "Manstopper."

Think of a hollow-base full wadcutter ...

That's hollow on both ends ...