Is a Browning HiPower Worth $300 More Than a CZ?

[HorseSoldier]

The CZ will maintain its value as well and increase at the same rate, if not better, than the higher-priced Hi Power.

I don't know on that -- might be statistically true, but doesn't sound right to me if we're talking about a bone-stock CZ versus a bone-stock High Power. Mileage may vary on both sides when you start getting into vintage designs or special/higher end models. (As a fan of Gunsmith Cats in my younger years, for instance, I'd be more than happy to shell out premium money for a short frame Pre-B CZ . . .)

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The CZ will maintain its value as well and increase at the same rate, if not better, than the higher-priced Hi Power.

As much as I like CZs, I don't think I'd make that claim -- as I have no experience upon which to make such a claim, and I doubt that the person making the claim has, either. CZs certainly haven't been around as long, and until the late 1990s, were as scarce as hen's teeth in the U.S. The term "scarce" doesn't properly describe the situation.

On the other hand, several of the pre-Bs I've picked up (and later sold) cost the original buyers $1000 - $1200, in the early 1980s. I generally got them for under $500. (One I traded even for a "shooter" luger that cost me $375 -- one of the Soviet captures. He knew he couldn't get his purchase rice and he wanted a Luger.)

Most of the used guns I've purchased, over the years, I picked for much less than their original purchase price, and with inflation, somebody took a licking.

Note: maintaining value means maintaining BUYING power despite inflation. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statisitics, something you paid $1 for in 1960 would cost $7.74 in 2012. A gun that sold for $100 would have to sell for $775 in 2012 TO JUST HOLD IT'S VALUE (due to inflation.)

While a lot of folks can offer examples to prove their claims, most of those stories don't come with documentation (like original sales invoices), etc. I'm sure some of those stories are valid. But not all of them.

A surprising number of folks on these forums also frequently shoot sub-2" groups at 25+ Yards with their handguns.

Check out this website and experiment: http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm


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[Ash]

A bone stock Hi Power, just to keep the same rate, has to go up by considerably more money, just to keep up with a CZ. It's just economics. A lower-priced item need not jump as far to keep a certain rate. Consider a $450 CZ vs a $650 Hi Power. In ten years at a 4% increase, the CZ will increase $200 in value. The same Hi Power, just to maintain the same rate, would have to increase $300. That would maintain the exact same rate.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Ash -- you're confusing dollar growth with value growth.

In the example I cited above, that $1 has to grow to $7.74 to maintain it VALUE.

A gun that starts at $100 (for sake of argument, call it a CZ) will have to sell for $774 in 2012 to stay even with inflation and to buy today, what cost $100 in 1960. (We know there were no 75s in 1960...)

A gun that starts at $300 (for sake of argument, call it a BHP) would have to grow to $2322 to stay even with inflation and to buy today, what cost $300 in 1960.

If both guns hit that goal, both guns have held their value, and neither has outperformed the other. Both have grown at the same rate -- the rate of inflation, and both have the same value as when purchased. Neither is the better deal. The BHP gives you more money, but you need more money to buy what $300 would buy in today's dollars.

I don't think the examples I cited are good (realistic) xamples, but they do show the dynamics of what we're discussing.

 

[jungle]

Most guns are not a good investment, exceptions exist in the rare and desirable end, but plan on it being worth about 75% of what you paid at best and they do tend to hold with inflation.

On the other hand, that shiny new ipad is going to be worth nothing in five years. The stock market is lower than it was in 2000, I ain't getting any younger, and all of my guns have been a great pleasure to own and offered more than a little utility.

Still don't want a CZ, but buy whatever you like.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

UPDATE: My brother just riffed through some old Gun Digests tht he had on hand. One was a 1958 (which probably reflected retail prices the year before, as that is how it is with publishing dates, price increases, etc) which had the (1957 retail) price at $74.50 for the Browning Hi Power. A 1963 (1962 retail) book gave the Hi Power still at $74.50. A '67 (1966 retail) Gun Digest had a price increase to $94.50. By the way, the '67 Digest gave the highly engraved Renaissance Hi Power at $249.75, or about 2 1/2 times as much as the standard gun that year. Both the S&W Model 39 and Colt Government Model were about the same price as the Browning that year. A SIG P210 was $165.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Great prices. I stand corrected on my concerns about BHP sale prices. Thanks for that info.

That '57 BHP would have to sell for $550 today, to stay up with inflation. You might get that, and a bit more. But at $550, it's a 0% return.

The '67 BHP would have to sell for $648, to stay up with inflation. That extra 10 years gave the owner an extra $100. And if you sold it for $900 in 2012, you'd be getting just a 5.5% return. That's about as good as the more desirable Renaissance, shown next. That's better than inflation, so that older BHP is a good hedge.

The fancy BHP that sold $250 would have to sell, today, for $1711 to stay up with inflation. A nice one might bring in as much as $3000, if in 95% or better condition. At $3000, that would give a 5.53% return. Better than a savings account, but nothing spectacular, and really no better than the plain-jane BHP. (That surprised me.)

A short-rail CZ 75 might do at least as well, too. If bought for $200 in 1977, selling it for $756 would keep it even with inflation. They typically sell for around double-that, or more, if in 95% or so condition. A $200 CZ-75 that sells for $1600, would offer a return of 6.61%. Don't see many of those around the U.S., however, so it's theoretical. Only Collector-grade guns command that sort of price.

Most of the BHPs I've seen have sold for around $1000 or less, and some for considerably less; the newer ones have cost considerably more than the older ones, too. A BHP bought in the last 10 years is probably a less-good value than the older ones -- as Inflation has been a killer in the past 25 - 30 years.

 

[jungle]

Walt assuming you bought at some reasonable discount to retail, 75% is about all you will get on the sale, inflation considered. If you buy at retail, that is about the best you will ever do, again inflation considered.

Frankly, I don't fret much over a 500-1000 dollar buy. It really doesn't get much attention except on performance and quality-these are not investments.

If I am really lucky I will get to wear a few out, but that hasn't happened yet.

I do agree with you, if you paid retail you are going to take a hit. I have seven near new BHPs, they ranged in price from 300-500 and some were bought just last year, most came in well under 400 and I had to consider each one a great bargain before buying. I will never have a problem getting my money out of them, but doubt they will make me much money. On the other hand that flat screen or ipad is a sinkhole.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

That has been my experience, too.

I bought a VERY NICE T-series BHP about 10 years ago for $300, in the original zipper bag. It's since seen some mileage, and I've had to replace a barrel with a non-BHP barrel (they wanted $400 for a factory barrel!); it's a nice gun, still, and a pleasure to shoot.

 

[Ash]

Walt, to maintain the same value, which is what I am referring to (and in so keeping the same rate, which would indicate the same value) the Hi Power would have to increase by $100 more dollars over the CZ. I just don't see them going up in those kinds of dollars - especially when you place the value at time parity with a CZ starting in 1976.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Walt, to maintain the same value, which is what I am referring to (and in so keeping the same rate, which would indicate the same value) the Hi Power would have to increase by $100 more dollars over the CZ. I just don't see them going up in those kinds of dollars - especially when you place the value at time parity with a CZ starting in 1976

You may be right, but you've offered NO EVIDENCE to support your claim. Belief alone isn't sufficient.

What were CZs selling for in 1976? My comments about "short-rail" CZs, above, was based on the prices paid in Europe. You would have had to have paid over $1000 to get that same gun, new, in the US. And a CZ bought for $1000 in 1978 dollars would have to sell for $3780 in 2012 to just hold it's value. I haven't seen anything like that happening. I have personally bought two CZ-75s that cost the original buyer $800 - $1000 in the 1980s for much, much less, in the early 2000s. They knew they couldn't get their purchase price and didn't try.

A CZ that sold new for $450 in 2000 would have to sell for almost $600 today to hold it's value; for that price I'd buy a new one and get a warranty, too,.

In the U.S., when they were first sold to the West, CZs prices were obscenely high, thanks to Western import restrictions on Communist Bloc weapons. That price differential went away when imports were finally allowed into the US, and several different importers started bringing them into the US. Prices were cut in half, and then dropped almost 30% again, very quickly.

I'm not claiming much of anything for either brand of gun; I think they're both losing propositions in real terms -- if you look at either gun as an investment. As a "less costly hobby," they can be better propositions than cars or most boats, and golf (clubs, etc.)

Note: I just did an "advanced" search on Gunbroker for BHP and found bunches of BHPs for sale with asking prices over $1000. Interestingly, there are almost no bids for the pricier offerings. There is a lot Lots of activity for ones selling at much lower starting points. $600 - $700 seems to be where the action is, and then things peak out. The same phenomena can be seen in Gunbroker CZs: the only ones getting bids are the lower-priced USED ones with starting prices much less than new ones.

One participant here has shown that some 50-year old BHPs have the potential to offer OK, if not bring stellar returns. I don't think newer BHPs are doing as well, however. Do you have any evidence to support your claims about CZ values? How about ones that were sold during the 1990 or early 2000s? (I may have some sales slips, somewhere; I need to dig them out...)

 

[dcarch]

And after seven pages, we've gone... precisely nowhere. The point remains that ultimately, value is subjective. To some, a BHP will be worth more than a CZ. To others, the extra money does not equal a finer product. Let's take the High Road here and let this thread die a natural death before it gets locked, whaddya say?

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Price for a CZ75 in the early years was $400-$500, after a stiff import duty was paid. Most early guns came in without import marks, as they were purchased in Canada, then declared, and the iron curtain influenced duty was imposed (I have heard from a few guys it was around $200-$250), so that doubled the price of the gun, not to mention the trouble of time and effort to find and arrange for purchase, shipment, etc. I have a CZ75 short rail from 1977 that was brought in by someone else, as I bought it early last year. I do not know the history on that one, but I was also told that darn few anywhere in the world are before 1977, as production didn't start til '76, and few were made that year. Another factor that seems to not be talked about is if seeking "investment" status for a gun, one ought to keep it mint, unfired, with box, papers, sales recipts, etc., and keep it in a cool, dry place on a shelf. Few of us do that. A mint coin is going to give a better return on investment over a used one. Most of us just enjoy the "better-than-most-things" investment/value of our guns, be they used or new condition. We get SOME kind of an increased value or profit off old guns, most of the time, and this is better than most tools or other things that get used. Very seldom does one LOSE money, unless selling too soon, or paying too much. My brother has a knack for knowing what his acquaintances or other people are looking for, finding it on one side of the gunshow, walking it across the room, and selling it for 50% profit, or doing the same on sturmgewehr.com, etc. How does THAT figure into holding against inflation?

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I think the presence of new designs, plastic guns, and about 10 times the competition of steel guns today has pushed the Browning HP off the average shooters plate. They are still beautifully made guns, and should hold their value as well as any other finely made gun. Watch what they do when they QUIT making them. The same for CZ's, although many have pointed out they are not finished or machined quite as nicely as the Hi Powers, so that may be one of the reasons for the current price differential. Throw in cheaper wages at the CZ plant, and operating costs woud be less. From a fighting standpoint, both are worthy. I don't see myself doing much better with one over the other in sport or real-life defense situations.

 

[Ash]

So, Walt, I offer no proof. But you think seriously that in, say, ten years, a Hi Power would increase at $100 to $150 to $200 MORE than an increase of a similar CZ? It is possible, but that would be to keep at the same rate of increase. Neither has shown, in my experience, such an increase. When you look, say, at the $400 used Hi Powers, compared to $350 used CZ-75's that came on the market, it would seem that CZ's on the used market performed even better when compared to original pricing.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

It's hard to say. We don't have a lot of evidence for any of our theories or conjectures.

That said, I haven't seen many $300 or $400 BHPs for sale, anywhere. I have seen a bunch of $300 and $400 FM and Feg clones, though. If you find any true BHPs in that price range, that haven't been "rode hard and put away wet," please let me know.

(There was a bunch of NEW $400 - $500 BHPs and FNHPs sold by CDNN a few years back. It wasn't a good time for me, financially, or I would have bought a couple and stuck them in the gun safe. I think those guns, unfired or ANIB, could easily be sold for a reasonable profit, today -- inflation be damned.)

 

[Guillermo]

having owned two Belgian BHPs that I couldn't make run, I would say "no".

Were my experience different I would have the other answer

 

[JohnBT]

I bought new CZ-75B Military model about 10 or 11 years ago when they hit the market for $349. They were a good deal and came with 2 15-round mags. Some people got them for as little as $310 iirc. Great gun, good trigger, but for some folks the sights are small and the slide can be a little difficult to grip.

The following year I bought 9mm BHP - the plain black, fixed sight model - for $559 at a local store.

The BHP trigger on my gun was really heavy and nasty at 8+ pounds, but I got it cleaned up some and knocked a couple of pounds off of it. And bobbed the hammer thanks to Mr. Camp's advice and encouragement. It's a great gun and I like it a little better than the CZ, but the BHPs I see these days are a whole lot closer to a thousand bucks than five hundred.

I had to look. OMG, they're up to $961.99??

www.impactguns.com/browning-hi-powe...nish-mkiii-13-rd-051-010593-023614237648.aspx

Now I don't feel so bad about paying $1399 for a Sig X-5 TAC TB with night sights and a 4.5# SA trigger.

John

 

[Walt Sherrill]

How I wish CZ still offered those gloss blue 75s!

While visiting the CZ CUSTOM SHOP website today, I noticed that THEY DO offer the gloss blue CZs. Fourth line of images in the link, below. They cost about $90 more (probably because of the extra hand-polishing needed...)

The display shows a polycoat model, but that's because they don't have a photo of the gloss blued model. Talk to them. I'll bet you can't get them ANYWHERE else. Angus Hobdell's operation is really great.

http://czcustom.com/CZ-UB-USA-Factory-Pistols.aspx