"Knock-down" effect of being shot?

[Hkmp5sd]

Vic,

No one here has stated they believe that a shotgun blast or bullet will pick a person off the ground and throw them backwards. The debate is over whether the human body may react to being blasted and give the appearance of being thrown. Essentially a subconsious muscle/nervous system reaction.

 

[only1asterisk]

As usual, Hkmp5sd has nailed it.

Quartus, thank for the English lesson. Truth is, I really don't watch it as closely as I should. You miss the point, man. It isn't flying, it's falling with style. You get hit right and you fail around trying to stay upright, observers interpet this wrong. The bullet IS doing the "knockdown" just as I would be doing the knockdown if I kicked someone in the knee.


David

 

[Mark Tyson]

Preacherman, is it possible the shot person only appeared to fly through the air, and in fact just fell over or tripped? The senses can be fooled by perspective and adrenaline ...

 

[4v50 Gary]

Speaking of Rich Davis, another example shows him wearing a best capable of stoping the 7.62 mm Nato. He stands with one foot in the air and his arms outstretched. The shooter is at point blank (3 feet or less) away and fires into Davis' chest. He empties the magazine into Davis and Davis is still standing. Then again, Davis is just plain nuts (nice guy, but nuts).

 

[Quartus]

No one here has stated they believe that a shotgun blast or bullet will pick a person off the ground and throw them backwards.

Hmmm. Then what are these?

Preacherman:

Now, I've heard a great many people denying that there is any such thing as "knock-down power" - particularly out of a handgun (heck, I've done it myself). However, with firearms that inflict relatively massive injuries, such as shotguns, I've seen this more than once. All occasions were in another country in a riot/unrest situation. I've seen at least four or five people get shot at close range with buckshot and/or slugs, and they literally flew backwards and/or sideways under the impact.

Vic:

Ok, for all of you people that believe a person can be thrown through the air when shot by a shotgun, read this: .... It can't happen.

Preacherman replied:

Unless it does happen, right in front of your eyes! As I said before, I have actually SEEN this happen on more than one occasion.

Now, Preacherman has stated very clearly that he doesn't think it's due to a transfer of energy from the projectiles, and that's good. But he DID state clearly that people fly. And others have argued for the transfer of energy without stating that people fly. (At least not clearly enough to quote here.) But the context of the thread puts them in the camp of thinking that people fly backward due to the impact of the projectile.

And we all know there are plenty of shooters (most, probably) who believe in Hollywood's portrayal of people flying backwards from gunshots. I 'spect some of them are reading this thread without posting.

Oh, and have you noticed the title of the thread? Something about "knock down effect"?

The only way a bullet is going to knock someone down is if they are already off balance. Anything else is either falling down, incorrect perceptions by the witnesses, or physiological reactions. (Which is why insane persons or people on drugs often take a lot of lead to put them down.)

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Hmm...let's see....

In my limited understand of the English language,

No one here has stated they believe that a shotgun blast or bullet will pick a person off the ground and throw them backwards. The debate is over whether the human body may react to being blasted and give the appearance of being thrown. Essentially a subconsious muscle/nervous system reaction.

and

Now, Preacherman has stated very clearly that he doesn't think it's due to a transfer of energy from the projectiles, and that's good.

mean the same thing and

But he DID state clearly that people fly.

is the subject of the current debate. So let's drop the semantics, grammar and physics and talk about Preacherman's theme, which is identifying the reason why. As stated,

Anything else is either falling down, incorrect perceptions by the witnesses, or physiological reactions.

but which, if any, cause the effect?

 

[Cosmoline]

The big Nitro Express rifles

the ones that deliver over 100 ft. lbs. of free recoil and throw mortar-size bullets might actually knock someone down. I have read accounts of them smacking down medium size game--actually knocking the animal down on its side. Short of that, the physics just aren't there.

 

[Keith]

No bullet ever knocked anyone down, period.

However humans are bipeds and as such, we're left balancing our top-heavy frames up there on a couple of long stalks (legs). It's not unreasonable to assume that a normal reaction would be to recoil away from the noise, pain and bullet impact itself. And if you're suffering a traumatic injury at the same time your nervous system is probably working in all kinds of directions, at cross purposes to each other. You're liable to spring away from the shot in a pretty dramatic fashion and since you're a top-heavy biped it's likely you'll land on your head, or something equally dramatic and ungainly.

What would that look like to an observer?

Keith

 

[Lancel]

Not about physics but about physiology.

I thought the question was clear: What is the mechanism that causes muscle spams when shot by shotgun but doesn't happen with a pistol or rifle?

Preacherman:
Looks like your medical tech's explanation may be the best we're going to get for while. Though I still think it's related to number of nerves damaged + fight/flight reaction.

Larry

 

[cracked butt]

I'm thinking you guys who think a person actually gets blown back into the air when hit by a shotgun blast are the same people who believe All Star Wrestling is real!

All star wrestling is probably more real than a bullet or shotgun blast knocking someone over. I can at least see how an aluminum chair might knock someone over.

 

[Erik]

I know several people who havce been shot; some wore vests at the time, some did not.

None reported being knocked down, though several reported feeling something along the lines of being punched where they were shot.

One admitted falling down, then springing back up. He claims it was psychological. I imagine he'd know best.

 

[Matt G]

The body can do some pretty amazing things when presented with serious shock. I read once of a soccer player who was hit by lightning during a public match, who shot 12 feet into the air, by virtue of his legs simultaneously flexing from the electrical pulse. (he lived, BTW)

I personally saw a buck I once shot basically jump over its own head-- propelling its hind end so violently that its rump came sailing over the antlers end over end, to land in a rather violent crashing heap. The buck was running at the time, and had its head up and did NOT nose-in when hit; he simply went flying, and was dead by the time he hit the ground. [Hit was an oblique (rear to front)double lung chest shot, originating from about 4 o'clock and exiting at about 10 o'clock. Load was a fairly tame 150g '06 Ballistic Tip.] I've often wondered about that odd reaction of that buck.

Euthanized sick feral cats have also presented wild flying responses to fatal shots. (To kitty lovers: These were dangerously sick, really vicious tom cats who were attacking my own beloved cats. Please don't flame me!)

 

[only1asterisk]

I think there needs to be a common definition of "knockdown". It seems that I tend to be rather inclusive. A blow to the right place, under the right circumstances, delivered by a firearm, will cause a person to fall with drama.

I'll help anyone that wishes to disprove it, but you have to provide your own vest and sign a waiver.

David

 

[rennaissancemann]

Preacherman

I think your physician friend’s description on the physiological mechanism that can cause some individuals to "fly" through the air after being shot is correct. In my younger days I was a correction officer and had the additional duty of being assigned to my institutions SWAT team. Part of the training I received dealt with how individuals may respond when shot. The phenomenon you describe was briefed as a rare, but known physical response to being shot. As you pointed out in your original post, the issue is not about the ability of a handheld firearm being capable of blowing someone off of his or her feet. The physics is so straightforward that arguing about it seems rather asinine to me.

As an aside, the terminal ballistics of any given firearm is studied in a controlled manner to allow the performance of a one given loading to be compared to another. Problems arise when you attempt to extrapolate a rounds performance in ballistic gelatin to its performance in a living creature. Everything from bears to bad guys reacts differently when shot. That was the point that W.E. Fairbairn was trying to make in the passage a previous poster quoted from "Shooting to Live." There is no firearm that you can hold in your hands that is guaranteed to drop a bad guy in his tracks, instantly, with a single shot. If you've got to shoot, place your shots well and drive your gun until the bad guy drops or your slide locks back. Repeat as necessary.

Respectfully,

 

[Dorrin79]

I think we can all agree that small arms aren't going to pick someone up and send them flying.

One of the key differences to me is whether or not the hapless target is aware of the shooting in advance.

As I've mentioned before, I have been hit by a 9mm bullet. (some idiot(s?) were shooting in the air nearby). Even though the bullet was only on a ballistic arc, it knocked me down when it hit me (I was sitting on a railing, and it knocked me off)

perhaps a better description would be to say it caused me to fall down

I suspect that that amount of force, delivered when I was aware of it coming, would not have had nearly as dramatic an effect.

 

[JShirley]

So all we have to do now is design a phaser-like device that makes all the muscles in the chest spasm (physically or psycologically) and knocks the bg to his butt. Cool! I would have to make it look like a remote control though...

It's called a "Taser", and while not like a phaser, it does work essentially like you describe. Latest generation is shaped like a pistol for ease of use under stress.

Peter, I think I have the answer. The MA systems Byron and I have studied work in several different ways, to include tissue damage, bone breakage, and nerve attacks. We have both seen folks hit in nerve centers around the elbow had their arms violently repelled when hit "just right", even when the blow alone had nowhere near enough energy to blast that limb back like that. Nerves.