Lee Carbide Sizing die questions

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Dudemeister

Dudemeister

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I'm pretty new to reloading, and for the past few weeks I've been working out a light load for my .45LC that I can be happy with.

After trying a few loads with Titegroup and no Trail Boss, I've settled on 2 loads I like, both for low recoil and accuracy: 205gr LRFN over 6.1gr Trail Boss, and 255gr LRFN over 5.8gr of Trail Boss. The Titegroup powder is too sensitive to position for my taste.

Anyway, the problem I have is excessive fouling of the cartridge. Most of the cartridges are simply covered with soot, some are even discolored. All of them simply fall out of the cylinder after being fired. After shooting nearly 500 rounds I think I maybe had 4-5 that required the ejector rod to remove.

I know that this issue is supposed to be caused by light loads that do not provide enough pressure to expand the cartridge to fill the cylinder, but I have progressively increased the loads in some tests, up to and slightly above the "recommended" maximums (205gr over 7.1gr & 255gr over 6.8gr), yet it didn't make any difference.

I then compared some reloads I bought from MiWall as well as a few Winchester factory "Cowboy Action" loads. The MiWall case diameter is 0.476 (±0.005) from the edge of the groove to where the bullet crimp begins, and the last 1/4" is 0.474. The Winchester cases are 0.476 from top to bottom. Both these rounds show very little, if any, expansion when fired (0.477), and very little fouling (mostly around the mouth)

I use a Lee 3 Die carbide set (model #90514), and my resized cases are 0.470 (±0.005). There is a slight bulge (0.476) at the bottom 1/8" of the case (can't push it into the die any further as it bottoms out against the shell holder). After seating the bullet, the neck area is 0.474. After firing the cartridge, it expands slightly to an average of 0.473-0.474.

So now the questions. Why are my resized cases so much smaller (in diameter) than the the factory stuff? Are my Lee dies "undersized" in some way? Am I doing something wrong?
 
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Why are my resized cases so much smaller (in diameter) than the the factory stuff?
Click to expand...

Becaue Lee and other die manufacturers have to take into account tolerances. There are a dozen or so brass case manufacturers whose tolerance vary all over the place. Lee dies are also subject to tolerances. It could be you are sizing a big case with a little die and that's why you are seeing what you are seeing.

Lee makes an oversize sizing die. It sizes .003" less than their standard die. Cases look more factory, if that's what you want.
 
Super light loads for a large case like the 45LC can often be problematic with excessive sooting and under expended brass. A couple of thigs you can do to help analize the cause. First, lift the revolver barrel straight up so as to put the powder charge against the flash hole. If you are in a safe place to fire it at a 45 degree angle or so( not straight up) do so and then look at the brass. If this eliminates your problem or greatly reduces it, then adding a filler to your loads will accomplish the same effect as lifting the barrel when firing did. I've used dacron when loading for a friend who shoots 45LC and desires these lighter loads, and it worked pretty good well. All it rewuires is stuffing the dacron over the top of your powder charge which helps keep it up against the flash hole.
Or, if you are shooting a 45LC made to handle todays modern ammunition, you could go with powder that loads denser capacitiies, this will help reduce the side wall powder burning issue. Doing so will also likely increase the working pressures and velocities though.
 
Dude,

I use .45 Colt Lee carbibe dies and have not had any problems with over working brass.

The last 2, 100 count bags of new Winchester brass that I have opened, were so large from the factory sizing dies, my Lee 255 RNFP cast boolits 0.452" sized, actually fell to the bottom of the case, had to resize them before I could load them .

As of now I have shot one bag 5 times and have had no problems with over working.

I shoot 5.7- 6.8 grs Trail Boss depending on boolit weight, and I also have sooting problems , but accuracy is very good from my rifle or revolver. I think sooting is normal with this powder.
 
Dude,

I have the Lee Deluxe Carbide 4-Die Set and I reload 45 Colt. My resizer die also resizes my fired brass from 0.477 down to 0.470. So, I don't think there is a problem with your die set. The solution to your problem is to avoid resizing your brass. The maximum specification for 45 Colt is a 0.480 diameter. Unless your fired brass is over that number then there isn't a need to resize. Skipping the resizing process is a very common thing for a lot of people to do...and they skip that step for two reasons. (1) To minimize blowback on their reloads and (2) so the brass doesn't get overworked and thus will last longer. So, to minimize blowback you want to use your "form fitted" brass. That is, your brass that was previously fired from your revolver and expanded to the diameter of the chamber walls. You may even want to consider firing heavy charges in all your brass to form fit it. Then you'll just reload with your minimum spec charges skipping the resize step.

To deprime your brass without resizing it you want to use a Lee Universal Depriming and Decapping Die.

You may want to take a second look at your crimping too. If you aren't crimping at all or are using a very very light crimp then that can contribute to the problem too.

Let us know how it turns out and what you did to solve your problem. Good luck.
 
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The last 2, 100 count bags of new Winchester brass that I have opened, were so large from the factory sizing dies, my Lee 255 RNFP cast boolits 0.452" sized, actually fell to the bottom of the case, had to resize them before I could load them .
Click to expand...


I have experienced the same exact thing with new .45 Colt Winchester brass.
 
ClemBert said:
Dude,

To deprime your brass without resizing it you want to use a Lee Universal Depriming and Decapping Die.

You may want to take a second look at your crimping too. If you aren't crimping at all or are using a very very light crimp then that can contribute to the problem too.

Let us know how it turns out and what you did to solve your problem. Good luck.
Click to expand...
I'll definitely take a look at the decapping die as you suggested. I also took another look at my crimping. As it's currently set up, it does put a crimp on the case, but it's nothing like the rolled factory crimp, so this evening I loaded a dozen of rounds with a slightly heavier crimp, which I'll take to the range to test. I'll keep you guys informed of the results.

Take a look at the images below and tell me if this is enough crimp or not. BTW the reason you can still see some of the bullet crimping groove, is because I needed to keep the 1.600" OAL. If I had pressed the bullet in far enough to make the groove disappear, the OAL would have been 1.585".

new%20crimp%201.jpg


new%20crimp%202.jpg


PS. No "phallic symbol" jokes, please. It's not my fault what it looks like this. :D:D
 
dagger dog said:
Dude,

....and I also have sooting problems , but accuracy is very good from my rifle or revolver. I think sooting is normal with this powder.
Click to expand...

Is this really common?

Are any other Trail Boss users out there experiencing a lot of fouling with this powder?
 
Dude,

If you don't have one yet I highly recommend a copy of the Lyman's 49th reloading manual. BTW, the 1.600 overall length of the 45 Colt is the maximum dimension. It is allowed to be shorter. ;) Go ahead and seat the bullet down to the crimping groove.

The nice thing about the deluxe 4-die sets from Lee is that you get a separate die for seating and a separate die for crimping.

Just for grins before you head out to the range. Take out your depriming pin from your resizer/depriming die....set a fired casing on the shell holder....then using a mallet and the depriming pin wack out the spent primer. Then skip the resizing step. Put a new primer in, powder, and bullet. Viola...you have reloaded without resizing. That'll hold you over until you buy the Lee Universal Depriming Die. Anyhow, load up a number of them like that then compare them to the resized reloads.

p.s. I just checked some of my .45 Colt reloads. They are sitting at around 1.585 with a 250 grain RNFP lead bullet with 40 grains of black powder under them.
 
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BTW, the answer regarding the crimp is dependent on your situation. Some folks don't crimp while others may use a heavy crimp. For your lighter loads the idea is to crimp the bullet enough to hold the bullet giving the hot gases enough time to expand the brass to hug the walls of the chamber thus minimizing blow back. Again, I think the primary key is to not resize your brass then use a mild crimp. I personally don't like to crimp if I don't have to because you are just working the brass more and potentially taking some reuse life away from the brass.

Below is a pic of some of my reloads. Notice that there's nearly no crimp. Just enough to put take the flare out. The cartridge on the right is .45 Colt.

513px-45_BPM.jpg
 
ClemBert said:
Dude,

If you don't have one yet I highly recommend a copy of the Lyman's 49th reloading manual. BTW, the 1.600 overall length of the 45 Colt is the maximum dimension. It is allowed to be shorter. ;) Go ahead and seat the bullet down to the crimping groove.
Click to expand...
And therein lies my confusion.

SAAMI specs for a .45LC (http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Colt.pdf), call for 1.600 maximum overall length.

Then you look at the reloading specs provided by Lee with the die set, and they refer to Minimum OAL. In fact they define it as: "The shortest, SAFE OVERALL LENGTH with maximum charges"

So if I use the maximum load allowed for a 250gr slug (5.8gr of Trail Boss), the MINIMUM allowable OAL is 1.600. Since I'm actually using a 255gr slug, the 5.8gr exceeds the maximum, not by much, but it does exceed it. If I were to press the slug further down the cartridge, the pressure would theoretically increase further still.

Granted, I'm using Trail Boss, so I'm sure that all this is still well within the capabilities of the cartridge and the gun, but it's a working "light load" I'm looking for here, not something that is near the top end.
 
Try "neck sizing" your cases only as far down as the bullet inserts into the case. Then the bottom of the case will still expand to seal the chamber, while the upper part gives good neck tension. I have not tried it personally, but I know a couple that do, with good results.

Andy
 
ClemBert said:
BTW, the answer regarding the crimp is dependent on your situation. Some folks don't crimp while others may use a heavy crimp. For your lighter loads the idea is to crimp the bullet enough to hold the bullet giving the hot gases enough time to expand the brass to hug the walls of the chamber thus minimizing blow back. Again, I think the primary key is to not resize your brass then use a mild crimp. I personally don't like to crimp if I don't have to because you are just working the brass more and potentially taking some reuse life away from the brass.

Below is a pic of some of my reloads. Notice that there's nearly no crimp. Just enough to put take the flare out. The cartridge on the right is .45 Colt.

513px-45_BPM.jpg
Click to expand...
What the hell is that monster next to the .45LC? A .50 S&W?
 
Take a look at the images below and tell me if this is enough crimp or not. BTW the reason you can still see some of the bullet crimping groove, is because I needed to keep the 1.600" OAL. If I had pressed the bullet in far enough to make the groove disappear, the OAL would have been 1.585".
Click to expand...
The OAL of 1.600" isn't the required OAL, it's the Maximum OAL. You should seat the bullet down into the crimp groove, an OAL of 1.585" is perfectly fine. The bullet manufacturer will place the groove on the bullet to where it should be seated.
 
Dudemeister said:
Then you look at the reloading specs provided by Lee with the die set, and they refer to Minimum OAL. In fact they define it as: "The shortest, SAFE OVERALL LENGTH with maximum charges"
Click to expand...

AFAIK, Lee is the only one that provides a data sheet for Minimum OAL. I believe those published numbers only work for you if you are using the same exact bullet as they are. In all reality, their published numbers are for their test fixture on that given day with the temperature and humidity conditions of the day. Take into account the primer, the lot number of the powder, the sizing of the brass and the crimp makes for a situation specific to the test. I'm not telling you to ignore the data from Lee. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective. You aren't loading maximum powder levels at this point. With experience and depending on the type of firearm you are using then overtime you might be inclined to push the envelope.
 
I should know better than voice an opinion when half asleep.:scrutiny: Shoulda called it the dragon.:D Watched that video and the question is was it more fun building that beast or shooting it. I would think it would be the latter.
 
You want the crimp where you can't feel it when you drag a thumbnail across the point where the bullet and the case meets, from the pictures you posted , the crimp is not enough also the seating depth looks a litlle long as you can still see some of the crimp canalure. The OAL being that much smaller won't make any significant difference in pressure.
 
Try "neck sizing" your cases only as far down as the bullet inserts into the case. Then the bottom of the case will still expand to seal the chamber, while the upper part gives good neck tension. I have not tried it personally, but I know a couple that do, with good results.
Click to expand...

+1. That's what I do. Deprime it first with a Universal Decapping Die, then screw your resizing die into your press only enough to resize the upper part of the case where the bullet resides.

Don
 
I would suggest a a little more with the crimp.

I've never loaded 45 long colt but have loaded a few thousand 44 mag loads and even with light loads you want the crimp rolled pretty tight. Yes it works the brass but it is better for consistency and letting all your powder to get burned up.

I've also never used the powders you mentioned but universal clays works great in my lighter 44 mag loads. It is VERY CLEAN BURNING! It also meters pretty good.
 
Remington brass is the thinnest and will expand and seal the chamber better with light loads.

My "light" load for .45 Colt is 6.2 Grs AA #2 and a 255 Gr bullet. It's very accurate, clean, has light recoil, and very consistent velocity no matter where the powder is in the case. Even recoil conscious folks like to shoot it in my 25-5. Grins all around.

Unique works well too.

Haven't played with trail Boss with this bullet yet. mainly because I have not had good luck with TB and plated bullets.
 
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