LNL vs 550RL

[jmorris]

and the 650 needs a casefeeder to shine.

The case feed is part of the base machine on the 650 what Dillon mistakenly calls the "casefeeder" is just a collator (or casefeeder feeder). This is why the Dillon "case feed cost less than the Hornady (it has less parts) and one reason why the base machine costs more. If you have ever messed with both, you'll also conclude its why the Dillon has less problems.

 

[GlockMasterG9]

Between the 550 and the LnL the LnL is the better choice.
If it were between the 650 and the lnl well now that would be much much harder to decide on.

 

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

While I prefer the Hornady L&L progressive over the Dillon 650, I have used them both and can state they are both good machines. You could not, however, give me a case feeder for either machine. In my opinion, the case feeders do not add anything beneficial these machines. Both machines already produce a completed cartridge with each cycle of the handle - how much more can one expect?

Adding a case feeders and bullet feeders interfere with the way I prefer to reload. I like to look at each station as I place an empty case in place and place a bulllet in place.

The noise factor for the case feeder is also a killer for me. I simply cannot stand the racket those things make. I know folks like them, but they are not for me.

On another thread I saw a completely automated Dillon 1050. It really looks impressive, but that is not my idea of reloading. Just listening to the noisy thing is enough to make me swear off reloading.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[hentown]

I actually tried my 650 without the casefeeder/collator. I hated it. I wouldn't dream of owning a self-indexing progressive without a casefeeder. Now a bulletfeeder, that's something else. I can do without a bullet feeder. I'd presume that anybody suggesting using a 650 without a casefeeder probably never owned a 650.

 

[Walkalong]

I would want a case feeder on a 650 simply because you have to feed brass on the "wrong side". With the LNL I can keep my right hand on the handle and feed brass and bullets with my left hand. That works for me. Goes quickly as well.

I would hate the noise of a case feeder as well. I actually cut off the case feeder arm on my LNL, as I will never need it.


Congrats to the OP on his choice. I am sure he will enjoy it. Between the two, he could hardly go wrong.

 

[Master Blaster]

I'd venture to guess there aren't too many reloaders who have experience with a LnL AND a 550/650.

Actually I have both set up on my bench right now.
Besides the auto index difference, the 550 is a higher quality press. The tollerences on the 550 are much more consistant than on an LNL. I have had the Dillon for 15 years and the LNL since 2005. I load on both side by side all the time. Search on my ID and read some of my older posts on this subject. As a starting progressive I would recommend the 550 over the LNL especially if you are mainly doing pistol. You will find the LNL has more quirks and needs many adjustments to get it to run well. I can still load faster on the manual index 550 than on the LNL.

JMHO YMMV

 

[jmorris]

In my opinion, the case feeders do not add anything beneficial these machines. Both machines already produce a completed cartridge with each cycle of the handle - how much more can one expect?

I can expect 100 rounds loaded 3 minutes after I start. Using case and bullet feeders you don't have to fumble around with either, makes loading effortless.

 

[David Wile]

Hey J,

A hundred rounds finished three minutes after you start!?! Holy crow! You aren't reloading - you are manufacturing! Geez, when I think of what I do in the first three minutes compared to what you do, all I can do is shake my head in amazement.

I fiddle with this and fiddle with that for a lot more than three minutes. I can easily spend more than 20 minutes getting things adjusted just right if I am changing dies and primer sizes. When I do finally get started, I look in each case after it is charged with powder, and I know I did not miss anything.

Compared to you, my output is miniscule at best. Then again, I am not in any competition with anyone else, and I sure am making a whole lot more finished cartridges in a much shorter time than I used to do with a single stage machine. And I do not have to listen to that noisy case feeder that does not add anything of value to my idea of reloading.

It might bring shame on me, but I still load small batches on a single stage press. Worse yet, I sometimes load 50 or more 45-70 cartridges with my old Lyman 310 "Nutcracker" tool just to show folks that it can be done.

Now some folks might say I go the slow way because I am retired and have nothing better to do with my time. Well, I do have other things to do, but I really have to admit that I cannot think of too many things I would rather do than reload cartridges. Maybe it is a calling, but I also did things the same way before I retired.

What can I say? I like reloading for reloading sake. I do not like annoying noise like the clatter of a case feeder - especially when I am doing something that demands all my attention as does progressive reloading. For some folks, reloading is a pain in the neck they tolerate just so they can shoot up their work. I can understand those folks. There are lots of things I do not like doing. I just feel lucky that I can and do enjoy the time I spend crafting cartridges whether it is on a progressive, a single stage, or an old Lyman Nutcracker tool.

I do admit that I thank the reloading gods that I am not forced to do my reloading on an old Lee "Pounder" Loader. Been there, did that, and would just quit if I had to do it again.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[Walkalong]

He is probably talking about his automated 1050. Boy can that thing crank em out. I do not have the need for that kind of volume.

 

[David Wile]

Hey Walk,

You may have seen the same automated 1050 video I did, and yes it sure does crank them out. I am truly fascinated by the mechanics of it; that is part of the whole attraction I have had with progressive reloaders for over 50 years. There is something magical to me about levers, cams and things going around. When it comes to loading my own cartridges, however, I like the idea of having my hands and eyes do the things that are important to me.

I can remember a few years ago when I first saw that you installed the EZ-Ject upgrade and that you just cut off the case feeder mount off the sub plate. I remember being surprised and then laughing at your bold action and certainty of purpose. I never had to upgrade to the EZ-Ject, but if had, I doubt if I would have cut that thing off my sub plate even though I would have no intention of using it. After reading what you did, I almost felt like getting the EZ-Ject so I could do the same thing you did.

I love watching that Dillon 1050 just racking them out, but I am also happy with my much slower method of reloading on my L&L progressive. I have always been in awe of the simple idea of producing a finished round with each cycle of the handle, and this was also true back when I first used a Pacific 300 and had to hand index the shell plate.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[jmorris]

He is probably talking about his automated 1050. Boy can that thing crank em out. I do not have the need for that kind of volume.

With that machine 100 can be done in about 2.5 min.

With my bullet fed 650's it takes me about 30 seconds longer per 100. Another nice thing about the 650 is that you can have a bullet feeder, seat and crimp in two stations and have a powder check die.



I agree tinkering/adjusting takes up a lot of time that's why I have so many presses that stay setup for specific loads. In the end it's prep that takes the longest time to complete anyway. I still load on single stage and turret presses for more rounds than I'd like to. Sometimes they are the most effective for the job at hand, like working up loads or odd ball/low volume rounds.
I'd have to say reloading would get 3rd place in enjoyment of my shooting hobby, behind shooting and building things for shooting but if I still did it they way I did when I started it would take up far more time.

 

[Walkalong]

I size/decap my cases first, using the LNL, and then hand prime them. I hand primed 500 .32 Mag cases last night. It took 30 minutes. Now I will load them on the LNL. I don't mind the extra time doing it that way. Some folks think it is crazy, but that is OK with me.

I obviously do not go through the volume you do, or I might have multiple machines set up like you do. Loading that much would be work, not fun. I believe I would go for the automated 1050 if I was loaded that much, but I think the components would break me.

 

[cfullgraf]

I size/decap my cases first, using the LNL, and then hand prime them. I hand primed 500 .32 Mag cases last night. It took 30 minutes. Now I will load them on the LNL. I don't mind the extra time doing it that way. Some folks think it is crazy, but that is OK with me.

Same here, it works for me too.

Since I break up the process, it affords me the opportunity to hand prime. I can hand prime 100 cases in about the same time as filling a primer tube, less if the press mounted priming system hiccups.

I still load ammunition on the L-N-L way faster than I shoot it. If my shooting volume goes up, I'd look at increasing production. But i really doubt that will happen in this lifetime.

If i ever remove the base plate from mu L-N-L, I will probably cut the case feeder extension off it as Walkalong has. Just listening to u-tube videos of the case feeders gives me a headache. My press runs so well the way it is, as they say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

But what works for me, does not have to work for everyone. That is OK by me.

 

[jmorris]

Some folks think it is crazy, but that is OK with me.

If it is a "relaxing hobby" thing I don't have a problem with it taking over twice as long. If it's because the machine doesn't do it's job I'd call it crazy.

if I was loaded that much, but I think the components would break me.

that's a good point to bring up, both ways. No need to spend a ton of money on machines for low volume but when (even at dealer cost) 20,000 9mm 147 grain bullets cost $1600 not counting brass, primers or powder (and they are a complete loss of investment) it makes a machine like the 1050 seem cheap, as it will be around forever.

 

[GW Staar]

With that machine 100 can be done in about 2.5 min.

With my bullet fed 650's it takes me about 30 seconds longer per 100. Another nice thing about the 650 is that you can have a bullet feeder, seat and crimp in two stations and have a powder check die.

I agree tinkering/adjusting takes up a lot of time that's why I have so many presses that stay setup for specific loads. In the end it's prep that takes the longest time to complete anyway. I still load on single stage and turret presses for more rounds than I'd like to. Sometimes they are the most effective for the job at hand, like working up loads or odd ball/low volume rounds.
I'd have to say reloading would get 3rd place in enjoyment of my shooting hobby, behind shooting and building things for shooting but if I still did it they way I did when I started it would take up far more time.

jmorris's last statement describes me as well, only I have to modify the building things for shooting line to building thing for shooting & reloading.

The only thing I can't relate to is having the funds, the time, or the space to have all the presses he has each set up for ONE thing. That's really a wonderful thing..a great blessing. My 1 Pro 2000 and Rock Chucker have to do it all.

I used to think I was too dumb and slow to have everything automated. Bullet feeder, case feeder, and primer feeder all going on at once. Now I think I'm too dumb not to have those things automated. Why, I can crank that handle and just do two things: watch the powder level and watch for any powder spills, from getting impatient and cranking too fast making it fly out a short pistol case. Kinda like your foot gets heavy on the gas pedal on a long trip.

 

[Walkalong]

If it's because the machine doesn't do it's job I'd call it crazy.

I absolutely hate machinery that does not work. My old Projector indexed so poorly with the first style shell plates it drove me nuts. Did you ever see the pic of the Projector I took a ball pein hammer to? That is how I got started hand priming, and now I prefer it.

20,000 9mm 147 grain bullets cost $1600 not counting brass, primers or powder (and they are a complete loss of investment) it makes a machine like the 1050 seem cheap, as it will be around forever.

I absolutely agree. Factored in over time that cost is nothing in comparison.

 

[cfullgraf]

If it's because the machine doesn't do it's job I'd call it crazy.

I spent much of my career engineering fixes for high speed paper converting and packaging machinery. Some aspects of the processes just never wanted to be fixed and the machine's efficiency would never meet management's expectations.

Since I have been there, done that, I am not interested in struggling with a troublesome progressive press.

If I find an easy work around that makes the press operate to my satisfaction, producing more ammunition than I can shoot in a lifetime, I am happy. I would rather load ammunition and not tinker these days.

There are some that are determined to get their progressive press operating as the manufacturer envisioned. More power to them.

What is crazy to me is some folks are not open enough to understand there are more than one way to operate a progressive press.

 

[GW Staar]

I absolutely hate machinery that does not work. My old Projector indexed so poorly with the first style shell plates it drove me nuts. Did you ever see the pic of the Projector I took a ball peen hammer to? That is how I got started hand priming, and now I prefer it.

Thank goodness we are past the days of first generation progressives.....I heard enough horror stories that I passed them up....even the early Dillons, though they were better than the rest. You ought to post that picture for us. that'd be entertaining for sure.

I primed for years on the Rock Chucker using unsheathed and dangerous tubes. The first Lee primer was cool, but too slow. Patience was never a strong point. Then they added a tray....and I took the tube primer off the press. I've never had an accident with either, but I always had this nagging nervousness.

I'm a rookie at progressives. It'll be 4 years next January. But I fell in love with that RCBS APS system. No you can't feel much, but the primer stop, along with uniformed pockets, means I can feel pretty confident that the primers go in the same. There was a learning curve where I had to learn how to adjust it right, but I don't hand prime much anymore. [Added later] Duh...that's not totally true...wasn't thinking of the non .308/.223/.243 rifle calibers I still reload on the single station R.C. of course...but I still get to use my preloaded primers because I bought the APS hand primer...which works well once you learn its personality. My goal is to eventually load everything on my progressive except experiments.

Originally Posted by cfullgraf
I spent much of my career engineering fixes for high speed paper converting and packaging machinery. Some aspects of the processes just never wanted to be fixed and the machine's efficiency would never meet management's expectations.

Since I have been there, done that, I am not interested in struggling with a troublesome progressive press.

If I find an easy work around that makes the press operate to my satisfaction, producing more ammunition than I can shoot in a lifetime, I am happy. I would rather load ammunition and not tinker these days.

There are some that are determined to get their progressive press operating as the manufacturer envisioned. More power to them.

What is crazy to me is some folks are not open enough to understand there are more than one way to operate a progressive press.
Today 06:11 PM

I can certainly relate to your distaste for tinkering. Once I retire I will NEVER design another building or home....nor set foot inside a wood shop...done that since I was 12.

Playing and tinkering with my reloading equipment to save a few hundred here and there is just plain fun for me. I'm not retired yet, but that's how I unwind and get clients and building projects out of my mind for a few hours.

My goal is to remove every stinking bottle neck that makes reloading a chore in my eyes. At 62, I'm really tired of chores.

There is no perfect press, not even the 1050. But it's like tuning a guitar....once you got it tuned you can make beautiful music together if you have a mind to. I've finally got my setup tuned and I'm having a great time.

I agree totally with you saying there is more than one way to use a progressive....and I'm impressed with darn near all of those ways. I would like to add a corollary to that: Blue presses aren't the only ones that can excel at those various ways...but which ever press you use, they all do best well learned and well tuned.

 

[jmorris]

My goal is to remove every stinking bottle neck that makes reloading a chore in my eyes.

That has been something I have been working on for years. Engineering machines/devices, fixes and creating seemless operation, is more fun to me than the never ending loading process. From sorting, cleaning, base sizing, annealing, bullet casting and my current project, loading, I have streamlined the process making it as labor free and efficient as I can without going over my reloading budget.

 

[cfullgraf]

GW Starr, well said!

While I do not like to tinker (my term) or have chores (your term) with the progressive press, sometimes my solution is to by-pass the problem. But, I do design and implement improvements to my presses and processes.

A few of my projects are...

For the L-N-L, I made powder drop tubes, seven so far, that allow me to use only one powder drop die without any adjustments to the die.

I modified a Redding 10-X to operate on the Hornady.

All of my presses are mounted to free standing floor stands of my design so that I can move them in and out of the reloading area. (This was an outgrowth of taking reloading with me on a TDY assignment 30 years ago. I liked the set up and stuck with it)

I reload for between 25 and 30 different cartridges, not all on a progressive, so minimizing change over times are important to me. For instance, all of my six powder measures, not counting the Dillons installed on the SDBs, have micrometer adjusters on them to speed resetting the powder charge from one cartridge to another.

While spending money on reloading gear is not a problem for me, I have a tough time justifying separate presses for each and every cartridge. I just do not load enough of them.

When I first bought the Hornady L-N-L a couple years ago, i was worried that to be efficient on it I would have to run large runs of ammunition. By operating the press outside the "box" I can quickly run small batches, 50 or 100 or so, including changing the press over to a different cartridge quickly and efficiently. Or, I can crank up the press and turn out a zillion rounds.

Also, when investigating progressive presses, I looked long and hard at both the Dillon 650 and the Hornady L-N-L. While the Dillon is an excellent machine, the Hornady was more versatile for my needs.

The Dillon SDBs came later, by the way.

 

[GW Staar]

cfullgraf, the three of us are pretty darn close to being on the same page. Except Jmorris and I enjoy the fiddling and inventing as a hobby in and of itself. Of course, you and him have better tools (in the shop and in the head) and more money to play with. that's okay, I still get by just fine and have great fun trying to find the cheapest path.

I found it ironic that cfullgraf investigated the 650 and the AP and chose the AP as a better fit. While I investigated the 650 and the Pro 2000 and found the Pro 2000 a better fit. Nothing wrong with the 650 to be sure, but I didn't want its complexity and expensive caliber change kits. I would only be happy with that system with a case feeder and powder measures set up for each caliber. Price to get caliber change speed was just too rich for my resources.

Using the simplicity of the Pro 2000 I've been able to make it both load and change calibers very fast. With most systems, adding a bullet and case feeder slows caliber changes down quite a bit. That was my #1 goal: have my cake and eat it too. Feeders would have to be made that don't slow down the system much if at all. I think I succeeded...and it cost me around $300...not each....for both.

The O.P. will be happy with his choice.....until he isn't. That's not to demean the AP. That just Human nature. What if they give us a 3rd generation progressive that has 7 stations, both bullet and case feeders included (which do caliber changes in 10 seconds), a brand new primer feeding system that is totally safe from tube explosions, and feeds a 1000 at a time safely and changes primer size in 1 second.....All at $600. Best wishes O.P. until then.

 

[cfullgraf]

That is one of the great aspects about the hobby of reloading. Within the limits of safety, it provides a wide variety of options and opportunities for the reloader to mold his process to his liking.