load data and bullet substitute
- Thread starter dnfd737
- Start date
- Status
I would say no. The FMJ's surface is harder than cast, requiring higher pressure and slower burning powder to reliably clear the barrel.
To me, it would be too much of a risk that a bullet could get stuck in the barrel.
But I could be wrong, as I have only been reloading for a few years.
Hopefully somebody with more knowledge will explain it better.
To me, it would be too much of a risk that a bullet could get stuck in the barrel.
But I could be wrong, as I have only been reloading for a few years.
Hopefully somebody with more knowledge will explain it better.
Mauser69
Member
I would not start with the same exact load. Generally use a lighter starting load unless it is a powder where you are cautioned against that (such as H110). Since you are considering cast data for use with a lighter jacketed bullet, you may not want to reduce it, but only research will help with that decision. A good thing is that Green Dot is a fast and relatively forgiving powder for light loads.
I suggest researching that caliber reloading data to try and find a table that shows the two bullets using the same powder, even if it is not the specific powder you want to use. That will give you some indication of how you might proceed. For example, I load Missouri Bullet Co. 140g hard cast TCFP in .40 S&W, but there is almost no published load data for this bullet, so here is how I approached it:
First, I wanted to use 700x powder because I have a lot of it and like it for light to medium pistol. I found load data for 135g JHP and 155g plated bullets that gave me a general range between 5 and 6.6g 700x for these bullets. I also found the load table that came with my Lee dies showed the exact same load data for 135g jacketed bullets with 700x, which gave me some comfort that the 6-6.6g spread was reasonable. As luck would have it, the Lee data also showed a few options for a 140g lead bullet, just not with 700x. But there were four different powders shown for both the 135 jacketed and 140 lead. Each of these showed about 1 grain reduction for the 140. I paid particular attention to the fasted burning powder that was on both lists, since 700x is a very fast powder.
Using this information, I felt that a starting weight of 4.5g 700x with the MBC 140g TCFP bullet would be reasonable and safe. I have since found that 4.9g may be the best load, giving good performance and accuracy with very little leading (lighter loads did not generate sufficient pressures to fully obturate the hard cast bullets, causing throat leading).
Many of us have to learn to generate unpublished load data for a specific bullet/powder combination, but you need experience and understanding of things like powder burn rates and what causes changes in pressure before you just grab something and try it. Start by reading all the leading details in several good reloading manuals to build a basic understanding of these issues.
And one other note about using comparative load data - try to find data that lists pressure for each published load, and compare that to the max pressure spec for the cartridge you are loading - if your comparison load is already near max pressure, then I would be VERY cautious about making ANY changes! It seems like many of today's published load charts list only velocity, not pressure, so it may take some additional research to find all the needed info for comparative loads. In my example above, Hodgdon data showed both velocity and pressure, but the Lee data only showed velocity. I got especially lucky that the Lee load data for all powders with the 135g jacketed bullet matched EXACTLY the load weights and velocities of the Hodgdon data, thereby giving me comfort about the pressure to expect also.
I suggest researching that caliber reloading data to try and find a table that shows the two bullets using the same powder, even if it is not the specific powder you want to use. That will give you some indication of how you might proceed. For example, I load Missouri Bullet Co. 140g hard cast TCFP in .40 S&W, but there is almost no published load data for this bullet, so here is how I approached it:
First, I wanted to use 700x powder because I have a lot of it and like it for light to medium pistol. I found load data for 135g JHP and 155g plated bullets that gave me a general range between 5 and 6.6g 700x for these bullets. I also found the load table that came with my Lee dies showed the exact same load data for 135g jacketed bullets with 700x, which gave me some comfort that the 6-6.6g spread was reasonable. As luck would have it, the Lee data also showed a few options for a 140g lead bullet, just not with 700x. But there were four different powders shown for both the 135 jacketed and 140 lead. Each of these showed about 1 grain reduction for the 140. I paid particular attention to the fasted burning powder that was on both lists, since 700x is a very fast powder.
Using this information, I felt that a starting weight of 4.5g 700x with the MBC 140g TCFP bullet would be reasonable and safe. I have since found that 4.9g may be the best load, giving good performance and accuracy with very little leading (lighter loads did not generate sufficient pressures to fully obturate the hard cast bullets, causing throat leading).
Many of us have to learn to generate unpublished load data for a specific bullet/powder combination, but you need experience and understanding of things like powder burn rates and what causes changes in pressure before you just grab something and try it. Start by reading all the leading details in several good reloading manuals to build a basic understanding of these issues.
And one other note about using comparative load data - try to find data that lists pressure for each published load, and compare that to the max pressure spec for the cartridge you are loading - if your comparison load is already near max pressure, then I would be VERY cautious about making ANY changes! It seems like many of today's published load charts list only velocity, not pressure, so it may take some additional research to find all the needed info for comparative loads. In my example above, Hodgdon data showed both velocity and pressure, but the Lee data only showed velocity. I got especially lucky that the Lee load data for all powders with the 135g jacketed bullet matched EXACTLY the load weights and velocities of the Hodgdon data, thereby giving me comfort about the pressure to expect also.
Last edited:
243winxb
Member
No. Use published reloading data for the correct bullet.
witchhunter
Member
No. Lead bullets use a whole different pressure curve than jacketed bullets. Use only published data for the bullet and powder that you have. There are rules that come to play in similar bullets, e.g. spritzer vs. hp. most use the same charge but drop to lowest data to start. Same with say 180 grain fmj vs. 175 grain fmj, use the heavier data but start low and work up. Don't cross over between jacketed, plated or lead.
Not really. Gas checks are to ensure that all the bullet goes out the barrel. It still has the softer lead in contact with the barrel.
BTW, these days there are plenty of rifle powder out on the shelves. IMR-4320, H414, AA2700, etc. to name a few that will work with that bullet weight.
It depends...
dnfd737,
Green Dot is a relatively fast shotgun/pistol powder in the same league as Red Dot and Unique. I would then presume these are "mouse fart"/low recoil/gallery loads. If the load is somewhere around 10 grains, then yes, you can use that load regardless of the bullet you are shooting whether it is a 100 grain lead bullet or a 168g FMJ. Will the velocities be different with the different bullets? Definitely. Will the groups behave differently? maybe/maybe not. For soda can plinking at 25-50 yards, probably not.
Now, if the load were for near max pressure, then you need to start lower and work up.
Gas checked lead or bare based lead vs. fmj: Same advice. If it is a low recoil load you are OK. If it is a higher load, use caution, start low and work up.
dnfd737,
Green Dot is a relatively fast shotgun/pistol powder in the same league as Red Dot and Unique. I would then presume these are "mouse fart"/low recoil/gallery loads. If the load is somewhere around 10 grains, then yes, you can use that load regardless of the bullet you are shooting whether it is a 100 grain lead bullet or a 168g FMJ. Will the velocities be different with the different bullets? Definitely. Will the groups behave differently? maybe/maybe not. For soda can plinking at 25-50 yards, probably not.
Now, if the load were for near max pressure, then you need to start lower and work up.
Gas checked lead or bare based lead vs. fmj: Same advice. If it is a low recoil load you are OK. If it is a higher load, use caution, start low and work up.
The load is 9.5 gr green dot, showing 1200 fps with the heavy lead and max of 13 gr at 1500 fps
Its for my 1899 martini enfield ordinal date on the receiver is 1876, I want lower level loads for this gun as its 100+ years old......also I can use green dot for the 38s&w and me 455 webley sort of an all inclusive powder
I already use MRP,4350 and trailboss in the 303
Trail boss can work in pistol calibers I have but trailboss dried up and green dot is on the shelf.
Its for my 1899 martini enfield ordinal date on the receiver is 1876, I want lower level loads for this gun as its 100+ years old......also I can use green dot for the 38s&w and me 455 webley sort of an all inclusive powder
I already use MRP,4350 and trailboss in the 303
Trail boss can work in pistol calibers I have but trailboss dried up and green dot is on the shelf.
Sunray
Member
No mixing cast and jacketed data. Jacketed data produces velocities that are too fast for a cast bullet. It'll lead your barrel.
Most cast bullet data uses pistol or shotgun powders. There's 180 grain cast .303 British data using regular IMR rifle powders on www.303british.com. Not that Green Dot is bad.
Be sure of your barrel's groove diameter too. Lee-Enfield barrels vary. Not a safety issue though. Just about accuracy.
Most cast bullet data uses pistol or shotgun powders. There's 180 grain cast .303 British data using regular IMR rifle powders on www.303british.com. Not that Green Dot is bad.
Be sure of your barrel's groove diameter too. Lee-Enfield barrels vary. Not a safety issue though. Just about accuracy.
243winxb
Member
Hodgdon yourh loads using H4895 . http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf Also will work with IMR 4895, IMO.
Jim Watson
Member
If you want to pursue the Green Dot loading, I suggest you STUDY "The Load" by C.E. Harris. He used Red Dot but the principles would apply. I did ok with 700X in lieu of Red Dot, but only with cast bullets, although he did offer The Load for jacketed.
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The Load.htm
He occasionally posts on this board, maybe you could PM or e-mail him and ask.
http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=62121
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The Load.htm
He occasionally posts on this board, maybe you could PM or e-mail him and ask.
http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=62121
Your load of 9.5g will work fine so long as you are sure the fmj bullets are a good fit for the barrel (big enough for the lands to engrave the bullets). You may want to play around with the exact charge weight if your accuracy isn't up to snuff, but I suspect it will be fine for your purposes (low recoil fun shooting).
Yes Trail Boss would have been another good powder as would Titewad, Titegroup, 700x, 800x, Clays, Clay Dot, Red Dot, e3, Unique, Bullseye, Herco, International and Universal. With all these powders, they will be 100% consumed by the time the bullet exits the barrel and the MV's will be in the same ballpark.
"The Load" is a good read and got me to test lots of shotgun powders using 10g as a start. You can develop some pretty accurate 50-100 yard loads anywhere from subsonic 200g rounds to 2000 fps 100g rounds.
Yes Trail Boss would have been another good powder as would Titewad, Titegroup, 700x, 800x, Clays, Clay Dot, Red Dot, e3, Unique, Bullseye, Herco, International and Universal. With all these powders, they will be 100% consumed by the time the bullet exits the barrel and the MV's will be in the same ballpark.
"The Load" is a good read and got me to test lots of shotgun powders using 10g as a start. You can develop some pretty accurate 50-100 yard loads anywhere from subsonic 200g rounds to 2000 fps 100g rounds.
Ike Arumba
Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2009
- Messages
- 47
Well, now, this has me wondering about reduced loads for my .308 Win using 110gr .30 Carbine bullets. I haven't found any Trail Boss for sale, nor Red Dot for "The Load". I do have the above mentioned Titegroup, as well as Longshot. Hodgdon shows max loads of 10.5 gr Longshot or 8.0 gr Titegroup for 110gr Hornady XTP out of a .357 Magnum, so I imagine the .308 ought to be able to handle that, but would it work safely to use 13 gr of either of these? Has anyone tried these loads?
P.S. I realize .308 and .357 are different diameters that compound the comparison problem, but Hodgdon doesn't show these powders for .30 carbine.
Last edited:
10 grains of Titegroup will work fine in the .308. I would not work up too much beyond that as I've found that pushing a small bullet too fast starts to ruin accuracy. 30 carbine bullets aren't meant to go much over 17-1800 fps and 13g Titegroup will probably get you close to 2000 fps. From a safety standpoint, you'll be OK with that load, it's just that I've found that you don't have to go too far from 10 grains to find an accurate load and going much faster didn't help things.
I like these low recoil bullets for target practice with the .308. I adjusted the load so that the POI hits a known spot at 50 yards without changing scope settings from my full power loads and can shoot many times without getting beat up by the recoil.
I like these low recoil bullets for target practice with the .308. I adjusted the load so that the POI hits a known spot at 50 yards without changing scope settings from my full power loads and can shoot many times without getting beat up by the recoil.
Ike Arumba
Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2009
- Messages
- 47
Thank you for the help, Rocket.
gamestalker
member
No, use data for the bullet type intended.
Jacketed data is for jacketed bullets, and lead data is for lead bullets.
GS
Jacketed data is for jacketed bullets, and lead data is for lead bullets.
GS
- Status
Similar threads
