M-1 Carbine re-make

[Captain O]

The .30 Carbine is a self-loading light rifle cartridge.

That:

a) at 1990 fps with it's 110 gain Soft Point bullet generates 967 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. At 100 yards is moving along at 1592 fps and still generating 619 foot pounds of energy. More than enough energy to penetrate and perform well in an "urban" setting.

b) Gelatin tests illustrate more than adequate damage and penetration at reasonable self-defense ranges. At close range, modern Soft Point ammunition is, in fact, devastating. (Brassfetcher.com).

c) It is lighter than an M4 (5 lbs. 3 oz.).

d) It has taken hundreds of small deer and varmints. Accuracy with a good rifle isn't an issue.

e) it is easier to maneuver than an M1 Garand/M14/M1A within the confines of a dwelling.

f) A magazine of either 15 or 30 rounds will generally outlast most firefights within the house.

g) It is relatively easy to handload and a pound of H110 powder, at 15.5 grains per load, should last a while.

h) The light recoil of the .30 Carbine is world renown. Even "recoil sensitive" individuals can learn to shoot the "little .30" well. The learning curve to use the Carbine is very brief.

I) It has been used and is still being used in many parts of the world for a number of different purposes. From Brazilian Guardsmen to Israeli women protecting school children... 75 years after it's approval by the US War Department.

What more "testing" or approval is needed?

The defense... rests.

 

[Gun Master]

M-1 Carbine and 1911

In the modern every day world for SD, which do you envision for SD?

The M-1 Carbine was sometimes an optional alternative to the 1911 in certain battlefield or quasi-wartime situations. It was a well made semi-automatic short rifle.

Can it kill a deer?
Of course!
Can it kill a man?
Yes!

It's Ok to like to shoot M-1 Carbines. They're fun!
And they can be deadly.

If you're hunting deer, I'd be more likely to get one with a 30-30, .308, 30-06, or similar caliber.

How many M-1 Carbines are being manufactured today, as opposed to 1911's?
I think the answer is obvious. The 1911 has so many advantages for SD, they don't need to be mentioned.

In my state I have a Handgun Carry permit. That does not include rifles, shotguns, swords, knives, etc......, only handguns.

Keep your respect and enjoyment for your M-1 Carbine.
It's a great gun!

 

[Tommygunn]

Several have produced / reproduced or replicated a revision of the M-1 Carbine.

Why have none replicated the M-1 Battle Rifle .30-06 ? Is it too difficult ? Would it cost too much, or what ? Honest question.

They each have a certain following.

I donnu ? The only Garands I've seen are old milsurps. Some have been in very good shape.
I know that many modern repros of the M-1 Carbine have suffered as some makers have veered away from the mil spec design. From what I know it's a difficult design to make with today's manufacturing techniques, especially with regards to how they heat treated specific areas of the parts back in the 1940s. The basic body of the carbine had to be a little bit "soft" or "springy" which meant no heat treatment while certain areas of the bolt (lugs for instance) had to be treated and hardened.
The Garand may be similar. This may make it difficult to make at a reasonable price.
Also keep in mind that there are a variety of M1As on the market, which is similar to the Garand but with a 20 round detachable magazine. I myself have one of these. The M1A is a sorta "Modern Garand" with its loading system altered from the 8 round clip (gun nerds please note correct use of the term "clip" ) to a modern easier to use + higher capacity magazine.
I'm not sure a real market for a "repro" Garand exists. I think it is certainly a worthy enough rifle ..... but "what I think" is =/= what a corporation will think when they consider cost v. profits & price points & markets.

 

[Captain O]

James River Armory is preparing a run of M1A rifles, and their $1300.00 M1 Carbines have bolts and receivers manufactured of billet steel. They seem well built. While they bought the "Rock-Ola" name, it is how they are manufactured that counts! (BTW, their new M1A rifles are made from billet steel as well).

The #1 M1 Carbine is the Fulton Armory specimen At $1600.00 each. They're very nice, but are very costly. Are they worth it? That's up to you. They look sweet! (I wish I could afford one)!

The third in line is the new Inland Carbine produced by Inland Manufacturing. Ron Norton is the president of Inland, and is committed to producing the highest quality cast receiver and bolt M1 Carbine to date. In it's inaugural run, Ron began having problems with soft bolts and breakage. I spoke with Ron personally, and he told me that he has resolved this difficulty. These rifle have been built to look like the originals, right down to the original woods and stains used in the Inland products that rolled out of the first Inland (General Motors) company back in 1942. These have been seen on the open market for between $900.00 and $950.00.

Lastly is the Auto Ordnance/Kahr .30 Carbine. While their parts may not directly "swap out" with the original WW2 "mixmaster" surplus Carbines, they have improved quite a bit in recent years. They may not be as precisely built as the originals, but they aren't as costly either. The A/O models have a reputation for magazines that won't function well. While they can be replaced, it is frustrating not to have a reliable Carbine directly from the box. Many have sent their A/O Carbines back between two and three times, many have had A/O rifles that run just fine right out of the box. In most cases, it is the "luck of the draw". Most are good, some are problematic. Just be prepared to exercise the warranty if necessary. The price? I have seen A/O Carbines run from $645.00 to $780.00 depending upon your source. Right now, Grabagun had some at a great price, but as of 4/10/16 they were "out of stock".

If you want to buy new magazines that function perfectly, try to find (and buy) 15 round magazines of South Korean manufacture. You won't be disappointed.

I am enamored of the Carbine out to 150 yards for all sorts of applications. It is a great varmint piece. As a deer rifle, I would limit my shots to 100 yards and wait patiently for a good shot to present itself. When it comes to Home Defense and personal protection, The rifle's low recoil and maneuverability lets me place 15 rounds precisely where desired. Between 950 and 977 foot pounds on a 110 grain Soft Point bullet generally penetrates between 18" and 23". If you check on the Brassfetcher.com website, you see that the .30 Carbines performs exactly as desired!

It may be more expensive than other "pistol caliber" carbines, but it also outperforms pistol caliber carbines. Why? It is a light rifle cartridge and operates at a maximum pressure of 38,500 psi. Other than the 9 x 23 Winchester pistol cartridge, no other standard pistol cartridge operates, or comes close to operating at these pressures. The "War Baby" of World War Two still works as well as it has for the past 75 years. (It works even better with today's Soft Point bullet technology).

Is it the right "light rifle" for you? Look over the .30 Carbine, along with what you have learned, at your earliest convenience and decide for yourself.

 

[Goosey]

The carbine did have good stopping power up close. The utility of small lightweight weapons in close spaces is well-known (atleast to those whose knowledge is based on real-life scenarios and not ballistics charts) and the carbine did very well in this role, while the Garand was often somewhat clumsier.No one is denying that the Garand's .30-'06 cartridge is flatter shooting and more powerful than the .30 carbine round, but in real life battle great distance & power are sometimes unnecessary -- as when one is fighting in close-in conditions.

In terms of "stopping power", the M1 Carbine did manage to gain a poor reputation for whatever reasons. And it's true that stable round-nosed bullets have relatively poor terminal performance up close or downrange, especially combined with a small caliber. But its other attributes outweighed the ballistic performance.

Several have produced / reproduced or replicated a revision of the M-1 Carbine.

Why have none replicated the M-1 Battle Rifle .30-06 ? Is it too difficult ? Would it cost too much, or what ? Honest question.

They each have a certain following.

Springfield Armory came out with a new-production Garand but it was discontinued due to lack of sales. You can get a Garand from the CMP, not always the case with the Carbine. Plus the M1A fills a similar role for many people.

 

[maxxhavoc]

Several have produced / reproduced or replicated a revision of the M-1 Carbine.

Why have none replicated the M-1 Battle Rifle .30-06 ? Is it too difficult ? Would it cost too much, or what ? Honest question.

They each have a certain following.

They are expensive to manufacture. They are more complicated and require more fitting than the M14 variants. With the street price of a no-frills M14 clone (Springfield M1A) sitting at $1200-1300, you can expect a quality, new manufacture Garand to be a bit higher.

With the CMP selling lightly used HRA's for $750 delivered to your door, it is hard to compete.

 

[Speedo66]

Carbines are still in use with small statured people because they have little recoil, not because of their great abilities.

I refer to Newton's Third Law when I say they have little recoil because they have little power.

I have one, a beautiful WWII bring back I was fortunate to have bought from a coworker 45 years ago for the princely sum of $75. I enjoy the gun, it's fun to shoot because there's so little recoil, as opposed to the M-14 I used in the Army. A Carbine would not be my choice for a combat arm.

It's fun to have these discussions, listening to different points of view. Unfortunately, anyone who disagrees with me is just wrong.

 

[agtman]

* * * because they have little recoil, not because of their great abilities. I refer to Newton's Third Law when I say they have little recoil because they have little power.

I assume that's a compliment because mild recoil is about the only thing the .30 Carbine has going for it - notwithstanding the inherent collectibility and nostalgic value of genuine USGI specimens.

A Carbine would not be my choice for a combat arm.

Outside of Sunday afternoon fanboys and Audie Murphy-wannabes, that's the general consensus.

It's fun to have these discussions, listening to different points of view. Unfortunately, anyone who disagrees with me is just wrong.

Well said. IBTL ...

 

[kBob]

An outfit called National Ordnance made M-1 Garands in the 1970's or 80's they did not do well. Nat Ord also made 1903 receivers and built up rifles from parts, which is what I believe they did with the M-1.

This carbine thing has become a "religious argument." Those for it are sure it is a gift from heaven and those a-gin it are sure it is the work of the devil. No amount of reasoning will move either camp.

-kBob

 

[Smj]

Total long gun NEWB here, unless you want to count a Ruger 10/22. And only into firearms for six years.

I became enamored with the .30 Carbine, history and an article in G&A, and picked up one of the Inland's '45 models in February. It only has about 150 flawless rounds through it at this point. I really love it, and don't care what kind of stopping power it has, don't plan on taking it into war.

It's good being a NEWB to firearms, at 60 no less. I learn so much, and have the advantage of NOT knowing so much I become annoying and abrasive.

Smj

 

[Gun Master]

M-1 Carbine and M-1 Today

The main problem with the M-1 Carbine today is nobody has conclusively made a price friendly and reliable reproduction. I'd like to have one otherwise.

Although I revere the original M-1 Battle Rifle, it does (did) have some flaws that needed improvement. The main flaw was the eight round limitation.

Enter M-14 (M1A). Twenty rounds is a good correction. Many other improvements are embodied in the M-14. The .308 cal. was not one of them.
It should have remained 30-06. So much for the NATO "friendly" .308 (IMHO).

OTOH, the BAR was limited by its 20 round magazine and 20 lbs. weight.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Lt. Col John George, in his book, "Shots Fired in Anger" he wrote about being in several firefights, one even when trapped by a battalion of Japanese in Burma (he was in the 5307th.)

Before the war he was a competitor in rifle shooting in the Illinois State Guard , even shot at Camp Perry national matches in '38, and has a photo in the book with him, his rifle, and lots of trophies as well as at Camp Perry. He wrote that he felt the skills he learned at competition did most certainly reflect in combat shooting, in one case he would 'call the shot' in that he would put his sight on a Japanese and fire, then think 'head shot', next Japanese 'chest shot', and did this while retreating toward the front lines (they were cut off.) His rifle he used to get out of that? An M1 Carbine!

Well Lt. Col. George felt the M1 Carbine was an ace weapon. But remember, he was a very good shot and not a lot of GIs were. That may explain the difference.

And C. Shore, who wrote a book, "With British Snipers to the Reich ", also told about finding a Winchester made M1 Carbine in a ditch and he made it his personal rifle (he was a sniper.) He marveled at it's accuracy out to 200 yards. Even used the Carbine to take deer with FMJ. BUT again, he was a very good shot!

From Audie Murphy's book:

"Within a moment I am involved in a duel with a German who climbs upon a cannon to get the advantage of elevation. I see him as he lowers his rifle upon me and whip up my carbine. He fires. The bullet kicks dust in my face as my carbine goes off. Frantically I try to blink the dirt from my eyes, knowing the German will not miss again. It is only a few seconds, perhaps, but it seems much longer before I can see. The kraut is sprawled in front of the gun. Later I discover that my lucky shot got him in the heart." (Chapter 15)

"Grasping the carbine in my left hand and a grenade in my right, I step suddenly from behind the rock. The Germans spot me instantly. The gunner spins the tip of his weapon toward me. But the barrel catches in a limb, and the burst whizzes to my right. I lob the grenade and grab the carbine trigger with one movement. Before the grenade has time to burst, two krauts fall with carbine slugs in their bellies. I quickly lob two more grenades into the position; four of the eight Germans are killed; three are put out of action by wounds. The eighth, a squat, fat man, tries to escape.....I squeeze the trigger. The helmet jumps. The man falls as if struck in the head with a club." (Chapter 17)

"Before reporting to company headquarters, I carefully clean my carbine. ‘I want to go up and try to get that sniper,’ I say....There is a rustle. My eyes snap forward. The branches of a bush move. I drop to one knee. We see each other simultaneously. His face is a black as a rotting corpse; and his cold eyes are filled with evil. As he frantically reaches for the safety of his rifle, I fire twice. He crashes backwards....At headquarters I make my report. Then I go to the room that serves as a kitchen, take my carbine apart, and start cleaning it." (Chapter 17)

"Crack! It is like being struck with a ball bat. The ricocheting bullet digs a channel through my hip and knocks me flat....I raise my carbine and with my right hand fire pistol-fashion. The bullet spatters between the German’s eyes." (Chapter 18)

"'Wonder if I could get a carbine. I don’t like an M-1 for this woods fighting.'" (Chapter 19)

And yea, I have a National Postal Meter M1 I got for $300 about six years ago. It's my go-to gun. Sure I have AR, AK, Mini and have owned FAL, M1A, and others. But that little carbine is very good out past 100 yards (I can do head shots on IDPA targets at 100 yards prone with that little gun.)

Deaf

 

[Deaf Smith]

QUOTE: "...Jim Cirillo, with the famous NYPD "Stakeout Squad" made 40 kills using Winchester 110 grain Hollow Soft Points in a .30 Carbine..."

I'd like to see the evidence for this claim.

Dunno about the 40 kills but in his books he does say the M1 Carbine was the only weapon they used, with SP/HP that gave one shot stops.

Deaf

 

[agtman]

Thanks for those quotes.

Audie sounds like a great read of fiction for a cold and snowy night ...

 

[Captain O]

Thanks for those quotes.

Audie sounds like a great read of fiction for a cold and snowy night ...

Now I know why they pump you out periodically.

 

[Gun Master]

M-1 Carbine and Audie Murphy

Thanks, Deaf. Your input was informative and appreciated.

Audie Murphy was and is an honorably decorated hero of WWII, and correctly so.
I didn't realize (or had forgotten) his most notable weapon of that war was the M-1 Carbine.

Besides the M-1 Carbine he used, he should be recognized for :
1. His valuable and noteworthy service to his country in WWII.
2. His acting career.
3. His contribution to the need for treatment of PTSS (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome), a years long neglected problem.

The Jim Cirillo info was also appreciated.

 

[Captain O]

All the arms during WWII, Korea and Vietnam had their place. They all worked quite well when used within their design parameters.

As a young man I liked watching the TSMG as it was portrayed on television and in motion pictures. Dad let me know, in no uncertain terms, how impractical the "full auto" function on the SBR really was. I finally understood, and tended to agree. I adore the M14 and the M1 Garand.

I just think the M1 Carbine is the most practical arm of it's kind for my purposes.

 

[SwampWolf]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampWolf View Post
QUOTE: "...Jim Cirillo, with the famous NYPD "Stakeout Squad" made 40 kills using Winchester 110 grain Hollow Soft Points in a .30 Carbine..."

"I'd like to see the evidence for this claim."

QUOTE: "Dunno about the 40 kills but in his books he does say the M1 Carbine was the only weapon they used, with SP/HP that gave one shot stops."

It was sort of a rhetorical question on my part, to give the author of the claim (Captain O) some face-saving refuge. So, if facts are important, Jim Cirillo did not make 40 kills using any kind weapon, let alone with an M1 carbine, nor did his immediate "entourage" come close to doing the same. Facts are important in these kinds of discussions; bald-faced myths decidedly not.

If you have the evidence (proof) supporting your claim, please provide it. Otherwise, I'd ask you to keep your anecdotal (if even that) claims to yourself.

 

[Captain O]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampWolf View Post
QUOTE: "...Jim Cirillo, with the famous NYPD "Stakeout Squad" made 40 kills using Winchester 110 grain Hollow Soft Points in a .30 Carbine..."

"I'd like to see the evidence for this claim."

QUOTE: "Dunno about the 40 kills but in his books he does say the M1 Carbine was the only weapon they used, with SP/HP that gave one shot stops."

It was sort of a rhetorical question on my part, to give the author of the claim (Captain O) some face-saving refuge. So, if facts are important, Jim Cirillo did not make 40 kills using any kind weapon, let alone with an M1 carbine, nor did his immediate "entourage" come close to doing the same. Facts are important in these kinds of discussions; bald-faced myths decidedly not.

If you have the evidence (proof) supporting your claim, please provide it. Otherwise, I'd ask you to keep your anecdotal (if even that) claims to yourself.

If you'll read carefully, I stated that the Stakeout Squad made the 40 kills. Jim Cirillo's kills were made with both the .30 Carbine and his heavy barreled S&W Model 10.

A good number of his kills were made with the M1 Carbine.

 

[silicosys4]

I don't have his book "Tales from the stakeout squad" in my possession right now, a friend is borrowing it.
But I do remember Mr. Cirillo's testimony that the M1 carbine was the best man stopping gun of all they carried, including 12 gauge shotguns. The caveat was that soft nosed bullets must be used.
I seem to remember he personally did most of his work with either his .38's or a shotgun, with a few instances where a .45 came into play, but those guns are mentioned more than a carbine.
The .30 carbine isn't so much mentioned for its killing power, but for its ability to knock a man down when firing down at an angle, such as at their hips or legs when the robber was fleeing, or when over penetration or background was a concern.

I wouldn't mind finding a nice carbine for an affordable price, but IMO they just cost too much for what they can do unless you want one for nostalgia's sake, which I don't.
There is a sporterized surplus carbine for sale locally but for what they want for it, and for the price of carbine replicas, I think about what else I can get. I would much rather have a replica AO tommy gun for that price, since I'd only be scratching a ww2 range toy itch, not looking for a utility gun.

 

[Captain O]

I don't have his book "Tales from the stakeout squad" in my possession right now, a friend is borrowing it.
But I do remember Mr. Cirillo's testimony that the M1 carbine was the best man stopping gun of all they carried, including 12 gauge shotguns. The caveat was that soft nosed bullets must be used.
I seem to remember he personally did most of his work with either his .38's or a shotgun, with a few instances where a .45 came into play, but those guns are mentioned more than a carbine.
The .30 carbine isn't so much mentioned for its killing power, but for its ability to knock a man down when firing down at an angle, such as at their hips or legs when the robber was fleeing, or when over penetration or background was a concern.

I wouldn't mind finding a nice carbine for an affordable price, but IMO they just cost too much for what they can do unless you want one for nostalgia's sake, which I don't.
There is a sporterized surplus carbine for sale locally but for what they want for it, and for the price of carbine replicas, I think about what else I can get. I would much rather have a replica AO tommy gun for that price, since I'd only be scratching a ww2 range toy itch, not looking for a utility gun.

I understand, but I also think that body, as well as head shots with Soft Point ammunition will do the job quite admirably.

 

[agtman]

Okay, so Swamp Wolf calls out Captain O'dudenal:

* * * So, if facts are important, Jim Cirillo did not make 40 kills using any kind weapon, let alone with an M1 carbine, nor did his immediate "entourage" come close to doing the same. Facts are important in these kinds of discussions; bald-faced myths decidedly not.

To which said dudenal replied:

If you'll read carefully, I stated that the Stakeout Squad made the 40 kills. Jim Cirillo's kills were made with both the .30 Carbine and his heavy barreled S&W Model 10.

Actually, what Captain O'dudenal said back in Post #37 was:

Jim Cirillo, with the famous NYPD "Stakeout Squad", made 40 kills using Winchester 110 grain Hollow Soft Points in a .30 Carbine.

So we're back to hearing more fictional accounts of the .30 Carbine's ballistic heroics.

Okay, whatever.

Not saying it doesn't make for good fiction, but it doesn't make the .30 carbine better than a mediocre man-stopper either.

 

[Gun Master]

M-1 Carbines and S&W Model 10's both have their valued contributions for military and LEO operations recorded in history.

As a side note, of course most police officers carried S&W Model 10's in most of the 1st 3/4 of the 20th century. In their patrol cars there was always, at least a (short) long gun, mostly shotgun. Sometimes there was a shotgun & a rifle.

As a young boy in the early 1950's, I was not expansively knowable about firearms, and didn't feel comfortable "hanging around" a police car.
The rifle may have been the M-1 Carbine.
Each municipality had their own policies and rules.

 

[X-Rap]

Some things just seem to gather mystical powers over the years when in reality you could probably switch out the M1 Carbine with a number of other guns and have the same or better results.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Robert]

Since my closing post from last night did not take I'll just say this: far too much bickering and talking past each other to leave this open.