Newtosavage
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I'm not sure how long that is, but bowhunters been debating pie plates for many moons!
Mechanical vs Practical accuracy
- Thread starter rwilson1
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Garandimal
member
From field positions - Milspec is < 4 MOA.
< 3 MOA is a good day.
< 3 MOA is a good day.
What then is a good field marksman? In my opinion, a man who can hit a tea cup at 100 meters with his first
shot, from a field position, in a 5 second interval is a good shot. Try this test on yourself, but do not call for
witnesses. People who talk about good shots are usually terrible liars.
- LtCol Jeff Cooper -
GRshot, from a field position, in a 5 second interval is a good shot. Try this test on yourself, but do not call for
witnesses. People who talk about good shots are usually terrible liars.
- LtCol Jeff Cooper -
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d2wing
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I think it is very important to determine how accurate your rifle is off the bench and to check it often. But it more important to know proper field positions and be well trained in them. In hunting many shots are offhand, but if you can it is better to be supported or as like to do when possible is drop to the kneeling position for shots unsupported. My standard is not 9 out of ten but ten out of ten BTW. The accuracy of the rifle does matter a great deal. But the accuracy of the shooter is most important.
I have been a smallbore position shooter for 40+ years. Wouldn't say I'm "more" accurate in prone, but as accurate as shooting off a bench. Now clamp that rifle in a vise and you'd beat me everytime.
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Sorry, but I just didn't have the patience to read through your post. I've used scientific study, but not much for shooting statistics. IMHO, shooting is supposed to be fun, not a math or statistical exercise! Others may find it very interesting.
Varminterror
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For some folks, the math is fun, and not an “exercise.” Some people swing a hammer all day, then go home and build furniture for fun. Some guys suck flux all day on the clock, then go home and keep burning weldrod on “projects” for fun. Some guys spend all day at work neck deep in data, then go home and run numbers for their personal hobbies, as a hobby in itself.
illinoisburt
Member
I shot competively in my teens and early twenties then later coached my son and his rotc rifle teammates, but as interesting as the disciplines of position shooting can be I've seen too often where form breaks down and accuracy goes to pot in what I would consider practical shooting situations. Hurried shot opportunities, uneven ground, wind or other weather (hot, cold, wet), and good old buck fever (or equivalent) tend to magnify form errors on top any equipment issues. I always try to encourage people to get off the bench and into building their offhand skills.
I do like the idea of tracking results and looking specifically for the differences between bench and practical shooting results. I think it would be very interesting to look at those results in light of different gun styles/ergonomics. Does the 1 moa full length bolt gun turn out 4 moa versus a 2 moa M4 with 5 moa? Some guns just seem to be locked-in extensions of your body while others are hard to settle. Have you noticed any patterns in this area?
I do like the idea of tracking results and looking specifically for the differences between bench and practical shooting results. I think it would be very interesting to look at those results in light of different gun styles/ergonomics. Does the 1 moa full length bolt gun turn out 4 moa versus a 2 moa M4 with 5 moa? Some guns just seem to be locked-in extensions of your body while others are hard to settle. Have you noticed any patterns in this area?
Varminterror
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“If the gun don’t fit, you won’t shoot it worth shi...”
entropy
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Not entirely true, but a well-fitting gun makes it much easier- an ill-fitting ones needs more practice to achieve the same levels of accuracy. the same is true for triggers. I shot a Mosin Nagant with a horrible trigger enough that I got better with it, and appreciated my other guns with good triggers all the more.
Varminterror
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It's tongue-in-cheek, loosen the corset a little... It's an easy mnemonic to describe how much easier it is to shoot a well fit rifle vs. one not so.
entropy
Member
Oh, I agree!
Heard it many times, repeated it myself, particularly regarding Trap shooting.
If extreme accuracy is your goal, then that is true. I don't know about bench rest rifles, but what I have seen in Smallbore prone and in F Class rifles is that ergonomics is extremely important. Point of impact varies by how you hold the rifle, where your face is on the stock, how hard you hit the trigger, and whether you pull the trigger straight back, sideways. Shoot enough Bullseye pistol and you will see the affect of trigger pull on point of impact. Bullseye is one difficult sport. The recoil and blast of a centerfire rifle hide many ills that you will see Smallbore prone, and I have learned from Smallbore that rifle fit is extremely important for consistency. I noticed the good shooters have also figured that out.
I believe this was a good thread, myself, based on my experience, with good ammunition, a good barrel, and good bedding, my rifles will shoot inside my hold. Determining what the error due to my hold, I don't know that number. The error changes, that I do know. There are days when I am shooting Smallbore prone and I feel I can keep them all in the X ring. Of course I don't, but my control is good on those days. I have shot a couple of 1600's. Same gun, same ammunition, similar conditions on a different day, sometimes it is all I can do to hold the ten ring, and of course, I don't. Getting frustrated is a good way to shoot shotgun patterns. Consistency is hard.
Currently I am banging away with a 35 Whelen, and I have noticed, if a round does not feed into the chamber, but I think its there, and I pull the trigger, my scope does a funny dance as I flinch!. With lighter recoiling guns, I do better controlling flinch, but I have seen my flinch, prone with a sling, firing a 22lr Anschutz! It takes work to reduce flinch, and then, you can't keep it away forever. The bigger the bang, the sooner it appears.
There is an interesting article about group size and the number of shots on target in the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports magazine
media/1533525/1014_ssusa_archive.pdf
The last article , page 38, is a reprint of a May 1958 American Rifleman article "Assessing the Accuracy of 22 lr Target Rifles."
This article is based on test data, it is a very well planned and executed article. Smallbore prone shooters shoot 40 shots per "match", two targets of 20 shots for record each "match", and there are typically three to four "matches" to determine the aggregate. Smallbore prone targets have four record bulls for 50 yards, two record bulls for 100 yards. This is to help the scorer and the shooters.
For the shooter, you need to spread the shots out so you can tell what is happening to the bullets as you shoot. So for small bore, each target is worth 200 points, each match is the aggregate of 40 shots, so for small bore prone shooters, they want perfect 40 shot groups.
Actually they want perfect 160 shot groups, and they want the groups to be less than the X ring in size. What you find, if you ever have your rifle tested at the Lapua test center in Mesa AZ or at Eley, is that lot selected ammunition will hold the ten ring at all distances but not the X ring.
What the article shows is that if a 40 shot group is the standard, then at 50 yards (the analysis goes out to 200 yards) than a 20 shot group is 88% the size of a 40 shot group, a ten shot group 71%, and a five shot group 57% of the size of a 40 shot group. Interestingly, at 100 yards, a prone with a sling group is 38% larger on average than if the group is shot bench rested.
What I have seen with the Bench rest 22lr guys, they are shooting within the inherent accuracy of the ammunition, because they don't hold the rifle. I have seen $1200 front rifle rests, adjustable for elevation and windage, these guys just monkey around with the knobs until the crosshairs are where they want it on the target. At worst they touch the trigger, but pretty much, they don't touch the rifle. Bench rest 22lr guys have one shot targets, if they tried to score a multi shot group on one target, all they would have is one hole, in many circumstances.
The more you practice, the better you hold. However, that really does not mean a dead center hit first shot. I can get into the center with enough sighters, but it is unusual to be dead center first shot. Every range I have shot, I have slightly different zero's on my rifle, and that has to be due to the slightly different geometry of the firing point, how high it is above the target, or below, and that translates into a slightly different hold as I aim. Its very subtle, but it is there.
When I started shooting, I used BB guns, probably around 25 feet away. Never shot at a paper target until much later, but my parents drank, so I always had quart club soda bottles or beer bottles to shoot. I placed them on the 55 gal. drum cover of the "burn barrel" and, starting at the top, would chip them down until only the base remained. That took about 30-40 BBs. Then, I'd dump the remains into the barrel and start again.
When my sister started dating her second high school boyfriend, a gun nut, he took me shooting in gravel pits and we had a .22 single-shot that we'd shoot a lot. He had a couple of handguns...a Sheridan Knockabout and a Ruger Standard Auto. I never shot from any positions except standing or sitting during that time.
The first time I shot from a bench was when I joined a shooting club that had both rifle and skeet ranges. They only had one bench and a 100yd target frame/backstop. I used a rolled up blanket to shoot over most of the time. I got into handloading and used 125 grain Sierra bullets for target shooting and varmint hunting.
My buddy and I began shooting woodchucks, so learned to shoot from varied field positions. We both had .30-06 rifles; mine a Savage 110 and and he, a Win 70. At first we didn't use any field rests, shooting only standing, sitting and prone and we did it as practice for deer hunting. He was a Jr. Rifle Shooter and a pretty good shot, but slower than death to fire at a critter. I believe that when it was his turn to shoot, he'd only get shots at about 1 in 3 chucks, but he didn't miss often. Our primary rule: Under 100 yards, all shots had to be offhand. That was a real learning experience that is missing today because there are very few woodchucks living in fields due to both the number of varmint rifles around and the introduction of Coyotes. Too bad. It was a great way to break-in hunters.
When reading about hunters wanting lower-powered rounds for hunting, I recall not being afraid to shoot at woodchucks, prone with a .30-06. At my age, I have much less muscle to absorb recoil prone and from the bench, so use a "sissy pad", but still don't hesitate to shoot an '06 or my .270 from the bench, but don't shoot prone anymore.
Have fun shooting. If you don't, you need to fix something.
When my sister started dating her second high school boyfriend, a gun nut, he took me shooting in gravel pits and we had a .22 single-shot that we'd shoot a lot. He had a couple of handguns...a Sheridan Knockabout and a Ruger Standard Auto. I never shot from any positions except standing or sitting during that time.
The first time I shot from a bench was when I joined a shooting club that had both rifle and skeet ranges. They only had one bench and a 100yd target frame/backstop. I used a rolled up blanket to shoot over most of the time. I got into handloading and used 125 grain Sierra bullets for target shooting and varmint hunting.
My buddy and I began shooting woodchucks, so learned to shoot from varied field positions. We both had .30-06 rifles; mine a Savage 110 and and he, a Win 70. At first we didn't use any field rests, shooting only standing, sitting and prone and we did it as practice for deer hunting. He was a Jr. Rifle Shooter and a pretty good shot, but slower than death to fire at a critter. I believe that when it was his turn to shoot, he'd only get shots at about 1 in 3 chucks, but he didn't miss often. Our primary rule: Under 100 yards, all shots had to be offhand. That was a real learning experience that is missing today because there are very few woodchucks living in fields due to both the number of varmint rifles around and the introduction of Coyotes. Too bad. It was a great way to break-in hunters.
When reading about hunters wanting lower-powered rounds for hunting, I recall not being afraid to shoot at woodchucks, prone with a .30-06. At my age, I have much less muscle to absorb recoil prone and from the bench, so use a "sissy pad", but still don't hesitate to shoot an '06 or my .270 from the bench, but don't shoot prone anymore.
Have fun shooting. If you don't, you need to fix something.
imashooter
Member
I'm wiped out and now feel so inadequate. I do a few rounds from a bench; supported.
I then go prone for a few and perhaps do a little tweaking.
Lastly, I stand in my perceived (grab the rifle and shoot that sob!) position of engagement; tweak if needed. Fire a couple of more rounds. Attempt to smile at my marksmanship. Call it good. Try to remember to turn my ballcap back around. Go back in the house.
I then go prone for a few and perhaps do a little tweaking.
Lastly, I stand in my perceived (grab the rifle and shoot that sob!) position of engagement; tweak if needed. Fire a couple of more rounds. Attempt to smile at my marksmanship. Call it good. Try to remember to turn my ballcap back around. Go back in the house.
Here is sit drinking morning coffee and thinkin' - bad combo.
One thing not yet discussed when your talking such analytical small differences is was there any ambiant tempuature difference between shooting sessions affecting bullet flight, rifle and ammo. What was your mind set each time. I've seen people will them self mentally too shoot poorly, probably myself included.
I shoot 4 position indoors during the winter. Some matches I come straight from work - 45 min drive during rush hour. My scores on those nights are consistently 10-15 points (out of 400) lower no mater what I do.
One thing not yet discussed when your talking such analytical small differences is was there any ambiant tempuature difference between shooting sessions affecting bullet flight, rifle and ammo. What was your mind set each time. I've seen people will them self mentally too shoot poorly, probably myself included.
I shoot 4 position indoors during the winter. Some matches I come straight from work - 45 min drive during rush hour. My scores on those nights are consistently 10-15 points (out of 400) lower no mater what I do.
illinoisburt
Member
Shooting sports should be fun! I wouldn't let anyone else's activity change that for you. If offhand doesnt measure up to where you would like it to be, just practice it more. Get something that doesn't recoil and is cheap to shoot (22lr, airgun) and start CLOSE with plenty of volume. Knocking pop cans or small reactive targets at 20 yards is a better confidence builder than fighting to pepper paper at 100. Keep it up and move farther as it gets easier. Few dozen sessions will definitely tighten up your form and teach good muscle memory. The longer ranges will come around.
imashooter
Member
Being a little (hopefully in a friendly way) sarcastic. Just kidding a little though not about how I zero weapons. Take myself out of the equation as much as possible then add my personal holding nuances for a final tweak. They're all dead on. I just do it simply and quickly.
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M118LR
member
Mechanical vs Practical accuracy? I've never heard of a shooter that shot better than the rifle he/she shouldered was capable of. (ie Mechanical accuracy.) MOA isn't a constant. A rifle cartridge combo capable of MOA at 100 yards won't necessarily be capable of MOA at 200 yards. The more you increase distance the greater the mechanical variables influence the outcome. A rifle/cartridge/shooter error combo that is able to retain MOA at 100 is 4 times less likely to be able to produce similar results at 200 yards. I'll let the statisticians explain the odds of the same rifle/cartridge/shooter induced error combo attaining MOA at 1000 yards. MOA ability at the expected range of engagement (KD for a competition) may or may not follow a linear or scale-able progression. The math may not match actual performance. JMHO.
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