Out of state firearms purchase with an out of state ID

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mwsenoj

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Let me clarify the title. I have heard recently of a person living in California and allegedly, the person works for a business that has an office in AZ but is a CA resident. The person in question has acquired an AZ id card by using said business address and was thinking about purchasing a firearm in AZ and then bringing it back to CA in order to avoid the 10 day waiting period and some of the other crap that CA has people do. So, would this practice be legal, and if not how serious would the offense be if the person was caught....I am guessing the answer is no, and serious, but the person I heard this from seems to think not. And before some smartallec tries to imply I am the person in the story, well, I really don't care I know the truth :)
 
If his intention is to purchase a firearm in AZ as an AZ resident, then he'd better be an AZ resident, not just some guy who managed to scam himself a state ID using a mailing address in AZ. For purposes of purchasing a firearm, federal law requires that he be present in the state of residence and have the intention of making a home there. A business office is not a home.

Knowingly making a false statement on a 4473 form is a federal felony and can earn you several years imprisonment.
 
As far as I know, it would be a federal felony. It would also be a problem under CA laws that require registration of hand guns and prohibition of many and guns and rifles. Option, break CA law and not register it or try to explain the possession of it.

Not to hijack this thread, but I wonder how it would apply to people who have multiple residences and are legal residents in different states.
 
Twiki357 said:
Not to hijack this thread, but I wonder how it would apply to people who have multiple residences and are legal residents in different states.
Click to expand...

Three words:

Personal Handgun Importer
 
Seems like a serious problem for me. At least I think multiple federal felonies is a serious problem.

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL.

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer is in compliance with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complied with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); 18 USC 922(a)(6) and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Here's what the statutes say:
18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;...
....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;...
Click to expand...

So --

  1. As ttolhurst points out, under federal law, this guy is not an Arizona resident, even with the Arizona ID.

  2. So by falsely showing an Arizona business address on the 4473, he is committing the federal felony of making a false statement on the 4473 in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6).

  3. And by taking the gun home to California with him, he violates 18 USC 922(a)(3).

  4. And if for any reason the seller knew or had reason to believe the buyer was not an Arizona resident, the seller would have problems under (a)(5), if not a dealer, or (b)(3), if a dealer.
 
but I wonder how it would apply to people who have multiple residences and are legal residents in different states.
Click to expand...

Firearms Transaction Record

Section B of ATF Form 4473 are completed by the 'Seller'

Question 20a verifies Identity [Gov't photo ID with Name, Address, DOB]

"Issuing Authority and Type of Identification"
"Number on Identification"
"Expiration Date of Identification (if any)"

Question 20b records an alternate address [if driver's license or other identification document does not show current residence address]

"For example. if a U.S. citizen has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address."


I am a resident of Kansas for voting / taxes and own and reside in a second home in Colorado for 4-months of the year. I would be able to purchase a firearm in Colorado once I am able to demonstrate residence. In section A Question 13, I would write in Colorado.

27 CFR § 478.11

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. …. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
While it is possible to be a resident of two States, the person that is referred to in the OP is not in any way a resident of Arizona. He is a California resident who works for a company that has an office in Arizona and has used that office address as his address to get an Arizona ID.
 
Fiddletown posted the relevant code, but you California folks really need to see the Calguns Foundation Wiki for these questions.

For example, r/t the OP, http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

Multi-state residency is certainly possible, but it's uncommon.

Feds talk about residency -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Federal_residency_requirements - for gun-buying purposes:
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides.

An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State
with the intention of making a home in that State.
Click to expand...

I would suggest that the evidence to satisfy whether one has "the intention of making a home in that State" is simply none of my business.
 
You said firearm in the OP. Most people assumed this meant a pistol and they are all correct, you can't do that with a pistol. You can go to AZ and buy a rifle or shotgun with no problem, but you have to use your Calif ID and the gun has to be legal to own in Calif as well.
 
Jeff H said:
...You can go to AZ and buy a rifle or shotgun with no problem, but you have to use your Calif ID and the gun has to be legal to own in Calif as well.
Click to expand...

Not if you're a California resident. See post 10. If the transferee is a California resident, federal law would require that the transfer comply with California law; and an out-of-state FFL won't be able to.
 
Three words:

Personal Handgun Importer
Click to expand...
Does not apply to the OP's question because, per CA laws, a "personal handgun importer" is a non-resident of CA moving to CA to become a resident of CA. It does not apply to a resident of CA that works in another state.



Penal Code 12001
(n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means an individual who meets all of the following criteria:
(1) He or she is not a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(2) He or she is not a licensed manufacturer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(3) He or she is not a licensed importer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) He or she is the owner of a handgun.
(5) He or she acquired that handgun outside of California.
(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998, as a resident of this state.
(7) He or she intends to possess that handgun within this state on or after January 1, 1998.
(8) The handgun was not delivered to him or her by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 who delivered that firearm following the procedures set forth in Section 12071 and subdivision (c) of Section 12072.
(9) He or she, while a resident of this state, had not previously reported his or her ownership of that handgun to the Department of Justice in a manner prescribed by the department that included information concerning him or her and a description of the firearm.
(10) The handgun is not a firearm that is prohibited by subdivision (a) of Section 12020.
(11) The handgun is not an assault weapon, as defined in Section 12276 or 12276.1.
(12) The handgun is not a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(13) The person is 18 years of age or older.
 
Does not apply to the OP's question because, per CA laws, a "personal handgun importer" is a non-resident of CA moving to CA to become a resident of CA. It does not apply to a resident of CA that works in another state.
Click to expand...

As long as a person became a resident of California after January 1, 1998, the statute certainly would apply.

Let's say a person buys a winter home in California in 1998 and they have a summer home in Montana. They have spent every winter in California since 1998. In the summer of 2011 they buy a handgun in Montana and bring it with them to California in the winter of 2011. They register the handgun with California as a personal handgun importer. What section of the code that you quoted does not apply?

Still doesn't make it legal for the OP to buy guns in Arizona, though.
 
Not to hijack this thread, but I wonder how it would apply to people who have multiple residences and are legal residents in different states
Click to expand...

You can purchase guns in the state when you are present with the intention of making a home in the state.

If you own homes in different states, while you are LIVING in each state you are are a resident of THAT state. You are NOT a resident of the other state.

mil folks who live in one state (have an actual residence) and a duty station in another state can purchase in either state.

Where you pay taxes, vote, or much of anything else does not matter for residency for firearms purchases.
You have to be an ACTUAL resident to purchase in a state.

Not having the correct ID can cause practical problems with establishing residency.

you may need a driver's license for age and proving who you are, and a utility bill or other ID to prove residency.
 
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