Wildalaska
member
Since you are not a lawyer and werent there regardless tell me how you justify that statement?
WildwatingeagerlyforthisoneAlaska
Police use Taser on pregnant woman
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Since you are not a lawyer and werent there regardless tell me how you justify that statement?
WildwatingeagerlyforthisoneAlaska
CannibalCrowley
Member
Research on what? As I've already stated, nobody has used an external defibrillator on a woman's womb. The paddles direct the current through the heart. A woman could be wearing a belly chain and be defibbed without the chain being affected; however, a necklace hanging down would cause skin damage due to the charge being directed through that area. A taser obviously distributes its shock throughout the entire body. If it did not, then the spasms would be localized to the area with the probes.
They also deliver different shocks. An AED generally has lower voltage, but higher wattage, joules, and amperage.
Basically, you're trying to compare apples and oranges.
No, I'm trying to compare the passage of electrical current thru human tissue.
Clearly you know nothing about the effects of a taser on an unborn infant, if any. I doubt anyone does. If you want to pee and moan over this perceived injustice have at it. I am just found of these things called "facts" which are in short supply involving this instance.
BTW, I dont recall any info about just how preggers this lady is...........
Clearly you know nothing about the effects of a taser on an unborn infant, if any. I doubt anyone does. If you want to pee and moan over this perceived injustice have at it. I am just found of these things called "facts" which are in short supply involving this instance.
BTW, I dont recall any info about just how preggers this lady is...........
Strings
Member
sendec, two things directed your way:
1)CC wasn't "peeing and moaning", he was just stating that defib and taser are two different animals. Which makes sense to me (but I'm just a layman, what do I know)...
2)This statement begs a question: "nudity from those who shouldnt"
Does that mean there are people who can get away with being nude in public?
1)CC wasn't "peeing and moaning", he was just stating that defib and taser are two different animals. Which makes sense to me (but I'm just a layman, what do I know)...
2)This statement begs a question: "nudity from those who shouldnt"
Does that mean there are people who can get away with being nude in public?
cracked butt
Member
What Laurent said....
If I were to come upon someone tazing or assaulting my wife while she is pregnant, someone is going to be in a world of hurt, I don't care if they are dressed as a biker, an Indian, or even a cop.
As for Phelps:
Cop: your papers please.
Phelps: screw you
Cop: bzzzzzzzzt!
What ever happened to de-escalation? Is it a lost art when you have a big club to lean on?
I've seen police ask people to tone things down a little, in fact I've had it done to me once, on the other hand, I haven't seen the cops act like thugs nor have any reason to do so in such cases. I think the first cop on the scene might have had a big chip on her shoulder, but that is my completely uninformed opinion on the matter.
BTW: I side with the cops about 99.9% of the time, but just can't on this one.
If I were to come upon someone tazing or assaulting my wife while she is pregnant, someone is going to be in a world of hurt, I don't care if they are dressed as a biker, an Indian, or even a cop.
As for Phelps:
Cop: your papers please.
Phelps: screw you
Cop: bzzzzzzzzt!
What ever happened to de-escalation? Is it a lost art when you have a big club to lean on?
I've seen police ask people to tone things down a little, in fact I've had it done to me once, on the other hand, I haven't seen the cops act like thugs nor have any reason to do so in such cases. I think the first cop on the scene might have had a big chip on her shoulder, but that is my completely uninformed opinion on the matter.
BTW: I side with the cops about 99.9% of the time, but just can't on this one.
no_morelipfrom_you
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"Since you are not a lawyer and werent there regardless tell me how you justify that statement?"
I answered it in my original post. Did you read the rest of it?
It was a response to a complaint about noise, and as long as they turned the noise down then the police should have promptly left. You DONT need to ask for I.D. to tell someone to turn the noise down, and excessively loud music is NOT reasonable suspicion of a crime and does NOT necessitate further investigation.
If your neighbor pushed you and then ran into her house would you be justified in chasing after her, etering her home, demanding that she come out of her closet, and finally shoot her with a taser for refusing to comply???
You'd be in Jail.
I answered it in my original post. Did you read the rest of it?
It was a response to a complaint about noise, and as long as they turned the noise down then the police should have promptly left. You DONT need to ask for I.D. to tell someone to turn the noise down, and excessively loud music is NOT reasonable suspicion of a crime and does NOT necessitate further investigation.
If your neighbor pushed you and then ran into her house would you be justified in chasing after her, etering her home, demanding that she come out of her closet, and finally shoot her with a taser for refusing to comply???
You'd be in Jail.
no_morelipfrom_you
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As for my justification or right to speak strongly on this issue, are laws only made by lawyers and politicians? Or is that not the reason we have an electoral system - because laws are made to represent the rights and needs of regular people. Such as myself.
Wildalaska
member
Yep.
You werent there.
Your not a lawyer and dont know the nuances of law in that jurisdiction as to what can and cant be done.
You therefore have no justification for your statement.
WildmerelyrepeatingwhatsinthepaperisntenoughAlaska
no_morelipfrom_you said;
Are you a peace officer in Illinois? I am...It's quite reasonable to ask for ID from the person you contacted at the party. How else will you know who to ask for when you come back after the second complaint? Yes, Virgina there are often second and third complaints about noise at a party like that. It's important that you contact the host of the party or some other responsible person so you know who you're dealing with. If you don't when you go back the second time, you may get to deal with a totally different partygoer and maybe you still won't get a satisfactory result.
Maybe it would be acceptable to you to just walk up and tell the first person you saw to turn the music down...Me, I'd just as soon know who I was talking to.
Now tell me, as a private citizen, what reason would you have to enter your neighbors house? You wouldn't. But, if you were a peace officer and called to that residence to investigate a loud noise complaint, you have a duty and obligation to check it out.
I suppose that if the police had been called, told the woman to turn the music down and she ran in the house, and they had just left, and there was a young girl being gang raped in the front room, it would have been ok, because there was no reason to think anything was odd about a woman slamming the door in their face and running when asked for ID?
Jeff
Are you a peace officer in Illinois? I am...It's quite reasonable to ask for ID from the person you contacted at the party. How else will you know who to ask for when you come back after the second complaint? Yes, Virgina there are often second and third complaints about noise at a party like that. It's important that you contact the host of the party or some other responsible person so you know who you're dealing with. If you don't when you go back the second time, you may get to deal with a totally different partygoer and maybe you still won't get a satisfactory result.
Maybe it would be acceptable to you to just walk up and tell the first person you saw to turn the music down...Me, I'd just as soon know who I was talking to.
Now tell me, as a private citizen, what reason would you have to enter your neighbors house? You wouldn't. But, if you were a peace officer and called to that residence to investigate a loud noise complaint, you have a duty and obligation to check it out.
I suppose that if the police had been called, told the woman to turn the music down and she ran in the house, and they had just left, and there was a young girl being gang raped in the front room, it would have been ok, because there was no reason to think anything was odd about a woman slamming the door in their face and running when asked for ID?
Jeff
no_morelipfrom_you
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Jeff, respectfully, I understand and can agree with what you're saying up until this point:
"I suppose that if the police had been called, told the woman to turn the music down and she ran in the house, and they had just left, and there was a young girl being gang raped in the front room"
The next line of thought after that would be that we should justify unreasonable search and seizure on the grounds that a crime "might be commited" or "might be currently in progress" any time the police are within proximity.
Theres simply not enough reason (IMO) to suspect a rape is in progress based on the fact that a woman ran inside her house at the request of an I.D.
Screaming yes. Suspicious activity you can actually see through the window, yes.
Loud music at a wedding party (and this is key, it was probably obvious this was a wedding party) and a woman running into her home because she does not want to show I.D. - no
Perhaps you're right that it was necessary to I.D. the owner of the house so as to speak to the same person later, but to escalate it to the point of having to taser an unarmed woman is just unprofessional conduct and poor judgement in my opinion.
"I suppose that if the police had been called, told the woman to turn the music down and she ran in the house, and they had just left, and there was a young girl being gang raped in the front room"
The next line of thought after that would be that we should justify unreasonable search and seizure on the grounds that a crime "might be commited" or "might be currently in progress" any time the police are within proximity.
Theres simply not enough reason (IMO) to suspect a rape is in progress based on the fact that a woman ran inside her house at the request of an I.D.
Screaming yes. Suspicious activity you can actually see through the window, yes.
Loud music at a wedding party (and this is key, it was probably obvious this was a wedding party) and a woman running into her home because she does not want to show I.D. - no
Perhaps you're right that it was necessary to I.D. the owner of the house so as to speak to the same person later, but to escalate it to the point of having to taser an unarmed woman is just unprofessional conduct and poor judgement in my opinion.
no_morelipfrom_you,
I think you misunderstand my example. I wasn't trying to say that the woman running into the house could have been construed into meaning there was probable cause for a search. I was trying to make the point that if that had been happening in the house, the same people who are buring the police ofr going too far (all based on a couple news reports which don't contain enough information to make any kind of judgment) would be ranting that the police were lazy and if they had just forced the issue of ID the girl could have been rescued. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
Would you agree that it is pretty unusual that someone would react that way when asked for ID? Let's see, what can that be a sign of, that she was wanted on a warrant maybe? That something else was going on in the house?
You know people lie to us all the time. Even when they don't have any reason to, they often lie. The bride slamming the door and running for the closet when asked for ID is reason to investigate further.
When a complaint is called into to the police department, they have to investigate it. The police had every right to be there, and every right to know who they were talking to. I think the woman initially escalated the situation by running away when asked for ID? Neither of us was there, so I'm going to withold judgment as to what happened after that until the facts come out.
Jeff
I think you misunderstand my example. I wasn't trying to say that the woman running into the house could have been construed into meaning there was probable cause for a search. I was trying to make the point that if that had been happening in the house, the same people who are buring the police ofr going too far (all based on a couple news reports which don't contain enough information to make any kind of judgment) would be ranting that the police were lazy and if they had just forced the issue of ID the girl could have been rescued. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
Would you agree that it is pretty unusual that someone would react that way when asked for ID? Let's see, what can that be a sign of, that she was wanted on a warrant maybe? That something else was going on in the house?
You know people lie to us all the time. Even when they don't have any reason to, they often lie. The bride slamming the door and running for the closet when asked for ID is reason to investigate further.
When a complaint is called into to the police department, they have to investigate it. The police had every right to be there, and every right to know who they were talking to. I think the woman initially escalated the situation by running away when asked for ID? Neither of us was there, so I'm going to withold judgment as to what happened after that until the facts come out.
Jeff
no_morelipfrom_you
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You make a strong case and I completely sympathize with the damned if you do, damned if you dont plight. My reaction was a bit emotional and I guess while I can see you are right, I just wish the peace officers could or would have tried harder to de-escalate the situation. Perhaps they did try.
In answer to your question, "Would you agree that it is pretty unusual that someone would react that way when asked for ID?"
I have a strong aversion to a police officer asking for my I.D. unless I'm driving a car. Here is the reason:
I have, while minding my own business, standing in a friend's yard, or on the sidewalk in front of my girlfriend's house, not doing anything in particular but standing and talking, been approached no less than 4 times by officers and asked for I.D.
I was asked intrusive questions such as "where was I going" (I wasnt going anywhere, I was obviously standing there talking to someone else), "what was I doing there in the area", etc.
I was patted down for weapons and treated suspiciously and detained until the officers in question were satisfied. I was not given any reason for them to approach me. This, is in my opinion harassment, and reason why officers should not be allowed to ask for I.D. unless you are the suspect of a crime or for a driver's license while driving a vehicle.
I have never been arrested, nor to my knowledge has a warrant ever been made for my arrest.
Yet I can see clearly why someone would not want to provide I.D. , and might look to their home as a safety zone to hide from having to comply with such a request.
I think it is easy when you're dealing with "bad guys" 8 hours a day to lose sight of the fact that as a person in authority, someone carrying a gun no less, you can easily rattle someone and leave them shaken up - especially when most of the actions of the day (seen in newspapers, on television, and in the bravado persona of macho cops) does not inspire trust.
To help illustrate, I'd like to share that my 13 year old sister shared with me recently that she actually fears the police and feels more uncomfortable around them than she does driving through a neighborhood with gangsters. I assure you she did not come to her conclusions with ANY help on my part as I have not shared my negative emotions toward them with her. I don't know where she got her fear from, and I didnt ask her. But:
How does that inspire confidence to be open and truthful with the police?
In answer to your question, "Would you agree that it is pretty unusual that someone would react that way when asked for ID?"
I have a strong aversion to a police officer asking for my I.D. unless I'm driving a car. Here is the reason:
I have, while minding my own business, standing in a friend's yard, or on the sidewalk in front of my girlfriend's house, not doing anything in particular but standing and talking, been approached no less than 4 times by officers and asked for I.D.
I was asked intrusive questions such as "where was I going" (I wasnt going anywhere, I was obviously standing there talking to someone else), "what was I doing there in the area", etc.
I was patted down for weapons and treated suspiciously and detained until the officers in question were satisfied. I was not given any reason for them to approach me. This, is in my opinion harassment, and reason why officers should not be allowed to ask for I.D. unless you are the suspect of a crime or for a driver's license while driving a vehicle.
I have never been arrested, nor to my knowledge has a warrant ever been made for my arrest.
Yet I can see clearly why someone would not want to provide I.D. , and might look to their home as a safety zone to hide from having to comply with such a request.
I think it is easy when you're dealing with "bad guys" 8 hours a day to lose sight of the fact that as a person in authority, someone carrying a gun no less, you can easily rattle someone and leave them shaken up - especially when most of the actions of the day (seen in newspapers, on television, and in the bravado persona of macho cops) does not inspire trust.
To help illustrate, I'd like to share that my 13 year old sister shared with me recently that she actually fears the police and feels more uncomfortable around them than she does driving through a neighborhood with gangsters. I assure you she did not come to her conclusions with ANY help on my part as I have not shared my negative emotions toward them with her. I don't know where she got her fear from, and I didnt ask her. But:
How does that inspire confidence to be open and truthful with the police?
carpettbaggerr
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Well, did you ask them why they approached you? Was it 3am? Were you standingin the same place for several hours? Were they called by a neighbor? Did you resemble a fugitive?
Generally, police don't approach and search someone just for talking to a neighbor. If it happened to me, I'd want to know why, and I'd follow up with the shift Sargeant or higher brass if I didn't get a good answer.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
no offense, but i typicially dont give the opinions of a teenager much credit. how much personal experience does a 13 yr old typically have?
especially when a child thinks there is more safety with gang members than around police.
unless your police are some active descendants of the gestapo, its not even worth discussing.
we've gone over it in the past, and it degraded more or less into people saying they would kill any cop that looked at them sideways, or at the very least, expressing how much it tickled them when they heard about bad things happening to police officers.
O.F.Fascist
Member
If something happens to the unborn child arent there laws now that could be used to try the officer who injured it.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
i hope not.
if the 'alleged victim' behaved in such a way that warranted the officers use of force, than the responsibility for the safety of the child is with the pregnant mother, who should have known better.
put it in terms everyone can understand........
if an 8 month pregnant woman charges towards you with a butcher knife, are you going to use deadly force to stop her or not?
if the 'alleged victim' behaved in such a way that warranted the officers use of force, than the responsibility for the safety of the child is with the pregnant mother, who should have known better.
put it in terms everyone can understand........
if an 8 month pregnant woman charges towards you with a butcher knife, are you going to use deadly force to stop her or not?
O.F.Fascist
Member
spacemanspiff, in your example absolutely. But using that example is like comparing apples and oranges with this case.
I do not feel that taser use was warrented and if anything happened to that unborn child because of unecessary taser use then the officer should be held accountable.
An unborn child is human life and anyone who injures or kills one (outside of abortion or in a self defense situation) then a crime was committed and that person should be punished.
I do not feel that taser use was warrented and if anything happened to that unborn child because of unecessary taser use then the officer should be held accountable.
An unborn child is human life and anyone who injures or kills one (outside of abortion or in a self defense situation) then a crime was committed and that person should be punished.
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