Pre 1899 ANTIQUE revolver for which I completed a Form 4473

[Elkins45]

Why not just burn or destroy all these useless and outdated records? Paying a rent to store all this seems rather pointless.

They might get lucky just often enough to justify it in their minds. The first new gun I ever bought from an FFL (now out of business) was traded at a gun show, and I wasn’t smart enough back then to keep records. So even if they found the records it would dead end with me. The second gun I bought new from an FFL (also out of business) is still in my possession all these years later. I can promise you if I ever decide to drop a gun at a crime scene it won’t be that one. I have to figure they just might get lucky and find the one crate containing the bound book from that long-defunct dealer.

 

[bearcreek]

all this seems rather pointless.

We're talking about the government here. That's perfectly normal.

 

[dogtown tom]

In NY if it fires commonly available ammo it needs a form. Skipped on the pin fired. Completed for the trap door.

Yet the Form 4473 is an ATF form and only for firearms as defined by federal law. If NY requires registration it would be on state forms, not federal.

 

[dogtown tom]

Why not just burn or destroy all these useless and outdated records? Paying a rent to store all this seems rather pointless.

ATF regs allow a licensee to destroy any 4473's after they reach age 20. If he goes out of business he must send his bound books and 4473's that are not yet twenty years old to ATF in Martinsburg, WV.

As mentioned above, ATF stores the records in containers in their parking lot. When an LE agency requests a firearms trace, the ATF ladies have to go out to the containers and search by hand through the cardboard bankers boxes filled with old 4473's.

 

[hartman23foscari]

If the firearm was truly made before 1898 then it is an antique per the NFA of 34 and GCA of 68 and does not meet the federal standards as a firearm, even if it uses fixed ammunition. Replicas or anything made after 1898 that uses fixed ammunition that is readily available IS a firearm and requires a background check when bright from a dealer.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

Here is an example.

An original Colt chambered in 45LC made before 1898 can be sold all day long without doing a background check while a modern replica of the same gun does require a BG check (if bought from a dealer).

As always check your state laws! Some states have more strict laws and require background checks to be done on antiques, muzzle loaders and even air guns.

you forgot something.

if you have a CR and the gun is 50 yrs or older iirc (someone feel free to check me) it is considered a collectors item and a CR can have it shipped directly to their house no ffl.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....
if you have a CR and the gun is 50 yrs or older iirc (someone feel free to check me) it is considered a collectors item and a CR can have it shipped directly to their house no ffl.

Under federal law. But the laws of some States can be more restrictive.

 

[AlexanderA]

a CR can have it shipped directly to their house no ffl.

A C&R license is an FFL.

 

[12Bravo20]

you forgot something.

if you have a CR and the gun is 50 yrs or older iirc (someone feel free to check me) it is considered a collectors item and a CR can have it shipped directly to their house no ffl.

I didn't forget about C&R, The OP was asking about firearms that are classified as antiques. Antiques and C&R are two different categories.

And with a C&R firearms, you must still have at a minimum C&R FFL in order to have guns shipped directly to your house. The sending FFL/C&R FFL will also need a copy of your C&R FFL first. Anything classified as a C&R still gets logged into both the sending and receiving FFL holder's bound books.

And you are correct in that for a gun to be considered a Curio and Relic, it must be at least 50 years old and in its original configuration. A quick example is any WWII bolt action rifle in its original military configuration is C&R but one that has been sporterized or changed from the original is not.

And if younger than 50 years old it must e certified as a rare or collectible model.

 

[AlexanderA]

And you are correct in that for a gun to be considered a Curio and Relic, it must be at least 50 years old and in its original configuration. A quick example is any WWII bolt action rifle in its original military configuration is C&R but one that has been sporterized or changed from the original is not.

The clock starts running again at the time of sporterization. A lot of those WWII rifles were sporterized in the 1950's, and those now are also C&R's.

 

[deadin]

The clock starts running again at the time of sporterization.

I hadn't heard of this one, but I can see the problem could be proving just when the "alteration" took place.

 

[Johnm1]

The clock starts running again at the time of sporterization. A lot of those WWII rifles were sporterized in the 1950's, and those now are also C&R's.

I wouldn't bet my freedom on that. From https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-firearms-are-considered-be-curio-and-relic-firearms

ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics.

I wish laws could be written in one place and they didn't require an opinion written to clarify. Best i can tell 27 CFR Part 478 is the actual law and it doesn't say as much. Wish I was better at this.

https://regulations.atf.gov/478-11/2019-24301#478-11-p432088716

 

[12Bravo20]

The clock starts running again at the time of sporterization. A lot of those WWII rifles were sporterized in the 1950's, and those now are also C&R's.

And because they were sporterized, they no longer qualify as Curios and Relics. It doesn't matter if the sporterization was done 60 years ago or 6 days ago. See the links that Johnm1 posted above.

 

[hartman23foscari]

And because they were sporterized, they no longer qualify as Curios and Relics. It doesn't matter if the sporterization was done 60 years ago or 6 days ago. See the links that Johnm1 posted above.

which is funny because there are some rifles, i forgot which, that never became military rifles but used for something else and setup as sporters.

 

[AlexanderA]

It's important to note that "Curios and Relics" are not just limited to military weapons. Sporting guns also qualify. The "bright line" requirement is that they be 50 years old from the date of manufacture. If a hunting rifle was put together in the 1950's (or up to 1970, actually), even using surplus military parts, it would qualify. That would be a "substantial alteration" or, in other words, a "remanufacture." There might be a problem proving the date when this was done. Receipts from a gunsmith -- a document trail -- would do it. Other evidence, such as the style of the alteration, might also be relevant. But nobody's going to go to all this trouble since it would be easier to just ship through an 01 FFL. We're really just having a theoretical discussion here.

 

[Johnm1]

We're really just having a theoretical discussion here

Agree it is somewhat theoretical and I’m not trying to be argumentative. Written words are difficult to express with inflection. So bear with me. But if words have meaning, once a mile-surp is sporterized it no longer fits the definition of a curio or relic. I think the words are clear And there isn’t much room for debate. You may disagree but I would need to see words either in law or interpretation to support that a sporterization over 50 years ago qualified as a curio or relic.

I have read on the internet that the addition of a scope doesn’t change the C&R designation. But again the written words don’t support that.

I only wish that had been said in the actual wording of the statute. In this case it was explained in a Q&A. I’m sure the interpretation has some degree of validity. As laws can’t be explicit on every possible outcome the department has to interpret to some degree.

For this discussion let’s not go down the road of the possibility or probability of prosecution or the validity of interpretation. let’s just focus on the letter of the law. If I were a license holder I would read the Q&A and consider a modified or sporterized mil-surp as a non-curio or relic.

I have read the following on this very forum from people much smarter than I am about laws. “Words have meaning”.

 

[brickeyee]

Just picked up an 1888 German Mauser.
Ammunition has not been available for many years.
Uses Black powder in a fixed cartridge.
Germany's first magazine fed military rifle.
Tubular mag under the barrel.

Shipped to my house by the seller in another state.
Only info he wanted was my age and mailing address.
Came USPS.

 

[Jim Watson]

That sounds more like an 1871/84.
The 1888 is an 8mm smokeless rifle.

 

[vintovka]

So Theoretically if OP successfully completed the 4473 for an antique and ATF cross checked CC records for marihuana acquisition could they be guilty of a felony?

 

[Jim Watson]

Lying on a 4473 is a crime. I doubt it matters if the gun is an antique. And do you want to pay a lawyer to explain it to the court?

 

[vintovka]

Lying on a 4473 is a crime. I doubt it matters if the gun is an antique. And do you want to pay a lawyer to explain it to the court?

Only asked question as todays technology is more than capable of instant cross checks,. Also they just finished scanning about 20+ years worth of 4473s at least 2 LGSs i know of. Many seem so limited as to think what's state legal must be fed legal. Time will tell.